Reading behavior in tennis, with Carlos Goffi

A talk with experienced tennis player and coach Carlos Goffi about the role that psychology and reading opponent behavior and mood can play in tennis. To learn more about Carlos, visit his site. He’s been coaching for more than 30 years, and has coached John McEnroe and John’s brother Patrick McEnroe, amongst many others. He’s maybe most well known for his best-selling tennis book Tournament Tough, which he co-authored with John McEnroe. During our talk about the role of reading behavior, we discuss Andre Agassi’s claim to have a very reliable tell on Boris Becker: that he could predict Becker’s serve direction based on how Becker’s tongue was sticking out.

A transcript is below. 

Podcast links:

• YouTube
• Apple Podcasts (embedded below)
• Spotify

Other topics discussed include:

• The importance of reading an opponent’s mood (whether he’s frustrated, confident, or neutral)
• The importance of the strategic side of the game, versus the more technical side of the game
• Why left-handed players are tough for right-handed players to play
• Environmental, personal life factors that can have negative effects on a player’s ability to compete

TRANSCRIPT

[Note: transcripts will contain errors.]

Zach: Hello and welcome to the People Who Read People podcast, with me, Zachary Elwood. If you want to learn more about this podcast, you can check out past episodes at www.readingpokertells.video.

A few years ago, in 2017, there was a popular story making the rounds online about tennis player Andre Agassi. In an interview conducted by The PLayers Tribune, Agassi said that years before, when he was playing Boris Becker a lot, he had gotten a very reliable tell on him. As Agassi told it, he could read how Becker would serve by watching how Becker’s tongue poked out of his mouth. I’ll play a clip from that interview, so you can hear it in his own words:

Agassi: Boris Becker, for an example, who beat me the first three times we, we played. ’cause his serve was something the game had never seen before. Well, I watched tape [00:01:00] after tape of him and, and, and stood across the net from him of three different times. And I started to realize he had this weird tick with his tongue. I’m not kidding. He would go into his, his rocking motion, his, his, his same.

Routine and just as he was about to toss the ball, he would stick his tongue out and it would either be right in the middle of his lip. Or it would be to the left corner of his lip. So if he’s serving in the deuce court and he put his tongue in the middle of his lip, he was either serving up the middle or to the body, but if he put it to the side, he was gonna serve out wide.

The hardest part wasn’t, wasn’t returning his serve. The hardest part was not letting him know that I knew this. So I had to resist the temptation of reading his serve for the majority of the match and choose the moments when I was gonna use that information on a given point to execute a shot that would allow me to, to break the match open.

That was a difficulty with Boris. I didn’t have a problem breaking his [00:02:00] serve. I had a problem hiding the fact that I could break a serve at will ’cause I just didn’t want him to keep that tongue in his mouth. I wanted it to keep coming out.

Zach: If you didn’t know, I’m the author of some popular books on reading poker behavior, also known as poker tells. So I’m interested in reading tells in other games and sports; that interest is one of the reasons why I started this podcast; to talk about the kinds of things pros in various fields notice that lay people would not.

So I’ve been wanting for a while to interview an experienced tennis player to talk about tells in tennis in general, and about Agassi’s claims in particular. Today I’ll be talking to Carlos Goffi. You can learn more about him at carlosgoffi.com, that’s carlos g o f f i, but here’s a little bit about him, which I found on USSportsCamps.com:

Carlos Goffi began playing tennis at the age of five in his native Brazil. Following a successful junior tennis career, he became one of the pioneer student athletes from Brazil to attend college in the US. His multi-faceted entrepreneurial career began as a professional tennis coach and author. Author of tennis best-seller, “Tournament Tough”, former coach of John and Patrick McEnroe, and proud father of former player and head coach at South Carolina, Josh Goffi, his passion for tennis runs thick and through. He has coached players of all ability levels, both juniors and adults, and is celebrating 30 years this summer with his TOURNAMENT TOUGH Training Camps.

End quote.

Note that that was from a few years ago, and Goffi is no longer currently doing the training camps. At the end of the interview, he talks a bit about what he’s doing these days, and talks about his plans to do some online mental and strategy coaching. If you want to contact him, go to carlosgoffi.com.

Maybe interesting, too, for my poker playing audience: Carlos Goffi is the cousin of Gabriel Goffi, who’s a well known high stakes Brazilian poker player, and who I once had the pleasure of hanging out with in Las Vegas and talking to about poker tells. It’s a small world sometimes.

So in this interview, I talk to Carlos about reading and predicting behavior in tennis, and about the psychological and strategic aspects of the game. We also talk about Agassi’s story about getting a read on Boris Becker. Towards the end of the interview we talk about the importance of the environment of a tennis player, and how there can be dynamics related to family and school and personal life that can negatively impact someone’s game. For example, you’ll learn how it’s a bad thing for a parent to sit straight in front of their child’s line of sight when their child is playing. If you’re a serious tennis player or fan, you might like sticking around for the very end, because I’ve edited the interview and moved some of the less behavior-related stories there, and that includes stories about some well known players, like John McEnroe and Boris Becker and others.

I wanted to thank Nancy Van Wynter and Ryan Daut for giving me some ideas for questions. Also thanks to tennis player and coach Adam Blicher, who recommended I interview Carlos.

Okay, here’s my interview with Carlos Goffi:

Zach: Hi Carlos. Thanks for coming on.

Carlos: It’s a great pleasure to be here with you, Zach.

Zach: Let’s start out with how big a role would you say reading and predicting opponent behavior [00:05:00] plays in tennis?

Carlos: Well, it’s big, uh, and it gets bigger and bigger as, you know, as, uh, the, uh, player, uh, gets more competitive and higher levels. The, uh, tournament tough, uh, methodology that I developed back in the, uh, mid, uh, to late seventies that then I.

It became a book, as you know. And, uh, we were very successful in publishing this book worldwide. Uh, not necessarily because of its content, but because of course, uh, the name John McEnroe, being a coauthor with me and fully supportive of the book, uh, its whole started out, uh. Uh, the two of us thinking that, uh, you know, junior tennis players were not, uh, really being coached on a mental side of the game, the competitive side of the game, that up to that point, uh, most of the instruction, uh, to junior players were based, uh, on technique.

And uh, and John was always. Way ahead of his times. What [00:06:00] makes him, uh, one of the greatest players, uh, you know, of all times is his ability to compete and his ability to compete is all he has to do with all this competing against the opponent’s mind across the net. And that’s been something that, uh, very few players, uh, wherever taught, number one, and the ones that did were the natural competitors.

So the point is, is that, uh, for every hour of a tennis match, uh, the ball is in play, only about 10 minutes. So, uh, it’s, uh, basically what happens during the other 50 minutes that you’re not executing is basically how you are reading and playing against the opposition. So it, it relates to your question, how big of a role is, you know, uh, predicting an opponent’s behavior, what each needs to be done.

After every single point, you know, and during my coaching years, I’ve always instructed, uh, aspiring tennis, uh players, junior tennis players, even professional players, that at the end of the point, when the point is [00:07:00] over, the very first question that comes into your mind is, how did the opponent react to the last point?

Not how you reacted, but how you react to the last point is very, uh, uh, unimportant. And, um, what is important is what the last point did to the opposition across the net. So you try to read where his mind is at after the last point. And, and I often coached that there are three possibilities. The opponent, uh, could be feeling confident.

You know now that, uh, the point went his way. Let’s say the opponent could be feeling frustrated if you, if the point did not go his way or he actually could be feeling neutral. The, the last point did not really alter his confidence level Going into the next point, well, you know, that first question should take three seconds to answer.

And, uh, I don’t know if you know, but in our, in my game, you know, there is a 25 seconds clock between the last point [00:08:00] and the next point has to get started in 25 seconds. So that there is a little, uh, process that, uh, a tennis player goes through at the end of one point, and before the next point starts during those 25 seconds, uh, that begins.

With, you know, trying to read where the opponent’s mind is at at that point.

Zach: How does one alter their game based on, you know, reading an opponent’s, uh, mood or feeling in that way, like based on seeing them frustrated or, or what have you?

Carlos: You need to answer that question first before you know, you come in with your tactical.

Plan for the next point, you know? So as we know, strategy is what you come into the battle with. So strategy is, uh, when you saw videotapes of the opponent, uh, and you figured out that, uh, the opponent, uh, is, is strong in certain areas and, uh, not as strong in other areas, how you are going to, you know, come into that match playing, uh, against his weaknesses and try to use your strengths and so forth.

So that’s a strategy [00:09:00] that you basically formulate according to your, your own. Strengths. Mm-hmm. And according to the knowledge that you have, uh, of your opposition at that point. So once you get into that battle and you are in the battle, everything that you do within those, uh, times, that in between points and, you know, and the changeovers are the tactics of the game.

And, uh, in keeping a pulse, keeping a, your finger on the pulse of the opposition, let’s say, you know, after every single point, is the most important thing. For a competitive tennis player. And, and, and this is what really McEnroe was a master, you know, at it, you know, he was basically playing and, and it didn’t matter how he was playing, whether he was hitting the ball well or not that day, whether physically he was okay or not, you know, but he was really in control of the opposition, you know, mentally.

And, uh, by doing that, you have to, as soon as the point is over, you gotta figure that out. So, uh, answering your question, how do you, how do you change your tactics? Well, obviously if the guy is confident [00:10:00] you, you can predict basically what he’s going to do next. Basically with that, the load of competence that he, that he got from the last point.

And conversely, if he’s frustrated, you can also predict how he’s going to react to the next, uh, point, uh, and, uh, you know, into the series of factors. You know, enter the picture after you, you, you, you answer that question about his feelings. From the last point is what the score is right now. So obviously the score plays a major part as well, you know, together with his feelings, you know, on how you can predict that he is going to come out swinging in the next point.

So this is something that you learn from, uh, reps, uh, since you begin to compete in tennis, uh, on reactions of the opposition, you know, according to the last point and according to this core.

Zach: So it seems like there would be. Some patterns in the, in the sense that if you say you’re studying a tape of an opponent and you have realized that maybe when they’re, when they seem frustrated, they’re more [00:11:00] likely to go one of a few ways.

Like maybe when they’re frustrated, they, they play it more safe, uh, they’re less willing to take chances. Or maybe when another player is frustrated, they’re more willing to take chances are, are there reads like that, that are happening that you base on, you know, studying an opponent’s tape and tendencies?

Carlos: Absolutely. And, and I think that, uh, that also has to do with the score. As I said before, let’s assume that the score is, uh, even let’s say three all win games and, uh, let’s say 30 all if the opponent, you know, won that point, you know, by let’s say, um, you know, hitting a good serve, uh, even if you returned it, you know, he was able to crank a winner and he’s up 40, 30.

You can expect that player trying to serve out that game and hold that serve with big shots coming in. He’s, he, he, he’s confident. He just won a 30 all big point with an aggressive play. You know, that’s elevates him. So you realize what’s coming at that point and, and you need to step up in order to be able to neutralize that, that confidence at [00:12:00] that point right there.

Conversely, you know, if that guy just basically, uh, uh, three, all 30, all. Played a tight point and uh, you know, did not put his first serve in, pushed the second serve in, you know, that’s the time that you take advantage if you did your homework on that 25 seconds to just be very aggressive with your return and just basically go after that opponent so that you know.

That frustration will play it again on his ability to be able to come up with a, with a shot at that point

Zach: in games in general, sometimes when you’re playing very strong competition, there’s sometimes the strategy to just play what your strongest game is that you would play versus, you know, an unknown opponent that was very strong.

And I’m curious, does that happen in, in tennis where you just, if you know you’re playing somebody that’s very strong or stronger than you, are you just gonna try. To, uh, forget about the exploitation, forget about, uh, trying to exploit behavior, and are you just gonna try to play the strongest game possible or do you feel [00:13:00] like.

It pretty much always is a game of trying to exploit, uh, someone’s weaknesses.

Carlos: Yeah, that’s a great question. In fact, I was just asked that question in another interview not too long ago, and, and, and my answer was, it’s a, you know, the old adage of, uh, you know, play your game. I. You know, because a lot of coaching, you know, they do are proponents of, uh, you know, you gotta go out there and play your own game, you know, can be a little misleading.

You know, particularly my game, you know, I think you play your own game basically. You know, if you were playing against, uh, you know, the wall that doesn’t have a mind, for instance. Mm-hmm. You know, or if you’re playing against, uh, ball machine, if you will, you know, that doesn’t have a mind. But, uh, when you’re playing tennis, you literally are playing against another mind that all sorts of factors, you know, enter that competitive, uh, uh, arena, you know, I mean, uh, and therefore, uh, the one that actually can figure out the opposition and control that mind, you know, through his game, adapting his game to someone’s mind, [00:14:00] uh, is the one that eventually comes out, you know, as the winner.

So, uh, I’m really, um, uh, a proponent of, yes, you need to know what your strengths are and your game is, but you bring that to the battle and you adapt that game, you know, in your strengths and try to shield, you know, your weaknesses, but you constantly playing against that opponents. Mental attitude

Zach: from point to point.

So let’s start talking about some behavior specifics a little bit more. So I’m curious, uh, are there fairly well-known behavioral patterns that professionals routinely look for? Like for example, maybe, you know, where someone is looking when they’re getting ready to serve or return, or maybe how someone is standing before a shot.

Are there some common things that stand out in that area that, that are well known in the industry?

Carlos: There are. Basic, let’s say tales if you will, uh, as you call it in, in tennis, you know, the [00:15:00] positioning of your, where you position yourself to serve a ball, for instance, this is a old, old thing that is done in, in, in the game of tennis for 50, a hundred years.

You know, well the player, for instance, from the ad court, uh, serving from the head court, wants to open up the court a little more, kick the ball out of the court a little more. Normally, that player would stand farther from the middle. Of the court so that he can, allows him a more angle to open up that court, you know?

And then the closer, obviously you stand to the middle, to the hash mark or the baseline, you know, obviously limits that ability to basically open up the court with a, because of the angle obviously. So that means that the ball will coming straighter, you know, more down the middle, down the T, if you will.

But, um, you know, those tales. Are not really used, but as you become higher and higher and higher in, in, in the rankings, because you take a look at Federer, for instance, you know, Federer, he’s able to serve from anywhere on the court with the same exact toss, you know, and, and, uh, you can’t really serve, you know, I mean, he [00:16:00] perfected away.

To, uh, to, to make a very, very slight variation of his tos. But, you know, all of the direction of this, of the serve comes in from his ability with his hands to just guide the ball to that particular spot on the, on the box. So the old, uh, times, you know, older times before feather, if you will, well, you know, if you wanna serve down the middle, you wanna toss the ball a little bit more to the left, you know, uh, if you are righty.

And if you wanna serve out wide, you gotta toss the ball a little farther to the right. You know, that’s long gone, you know, in our game. Mm-hmm. You know, our game is all about hiding. You know, where are you going to serve and be unpredictable, you know, that’s like the most important thing. It goes right along what we’re saying.

You know, if you are a predictable opponent where you stand or where you toss, you’re just giving away too much, you know, for, for an opposition. So, so if you look at the best players these days, they’re very unpredictable. I mean, they can serve, you know, with the, basically the same toss to anywhere on that box.

And, uh, [00:17:00] they can, uh, some people like to return it, you know, the, the returning games. Uh, if you notice, you know, especially after Nadal came into the scene and he stood way back, you know, almost like know by the back fence, uh, what, that gave him much more time to be able to. To, to return big servers. Now, what that does though is that obviously by standing farther back, it opens up more angles for the server.

So you have to be extremely fast like a naau, you know, to be that far back, to be able to still go retrieve like, you know, a wide serve, you know, from being that far back and, and be able to have to, to be able to rip a shot. You know, from that far back that it doesn’t land in the middle of the court, you know, and basically leaves you, uh, completely vulnerable for another major attack, you know, from an approached shot.

So, but I guess on a Dao, even though you see the guy, you know, 20 feet behind the baseline, you say, okay, you know, [00:18:00] instead of serving straight at him. Let me open up that serve, you know, and you can still open up that serve and you can still rip a shot from whatever it is. So even if you, if you show the opposition that, uh, you are giving that opposition, you know, let’s say the angle of the serve, you gotta back it up with the speed that an Dow has to basically neutralize.

You know, that, uh, giveaway,

Zach: is it accurate to say that serious players are studying their own games tapes to make sure that they don’t have any, you know, obvious patterns tells,

Carlos: you know, interesting because, uh, the majority of people, you know, they watch tapes obviously of, uh, the, uh, opposition to try to figure it out.

The patterns, uh, that those, uh, players have, what do they do at 30? All, what do they do at. Five 40, you know, I mean, do they get more aggressive? Do they get more sort of defensive? Uh mm-hmm. Uh, um, and, uh, and so forth in, in looking at your own takes. Normally, uh, tennis players just watch to see more of the technique rather than really.[00:19:00]

How they are competing and, and I am a proponent that you should watch your video tapes, not necessarily just to see, you know, why you missed that ball, technically speaking or physically speaking, but really, you know about your competitive composure. You know, that is really, is don’t want, is, is, is what is telling, you know, your opponent, you know, what kind of composure do you have or kind of a competitive ability to stand pressure and not give away.

All of those tales, you know, at that point?

Zach: Well, it reminds me of, uh, I interviewed Robert Drysdale, who’s a, um, juujitsu, MMA fighter, and he talked about how, uh, you know, it was so important to remain stoic and not give away your emotions when you were fighting because, you know, knowing that your opponent was frustrated or feeling disheartened gave, you know, gave someone such an advantage.

Um, so people tried very hard to be, be stoic. And so it kind of reminds me of that. Let’s see. Would you say it’s accurate to say that lots of players, uh, have very strong technique [00:20:00] but are lacking in the, that strategic department?

Carlos: I’ve often said that there are way too many hitters and very few players, you know, uh, to be a hitter.

You know, it is just basically a guy that just thinks about his strokes and he just goes out there and, uh, you know, if, uh, if his forehand is not working or your service is not working, there’s nothing else left. And unfortunately a lot of junior players, you know, are hitters. I. You know, they haven’t really grasped the, uh, uh, the whole concept of being a player.

Being a player is exactly what we just talked about. Being a player is adapting tactically to the opponent, you know, at all times. Is, is, is, is, is having your finger on his pulse at all times. You know, after every single point. You know, that’s a player. Yeah.

Zach: It’s like being a general in a, in a war or something.

Yeah, exactly. Yes. So maybe this is a good spot to talk about that, that Andre Eggi, you know, story that came out a few years ago and, and made the rounds just again recently where he had talked about getting a, [00:21:00] a very reliable tell on Boris Becker. I. Uh, the way that Becker held his tongue when he was serving, uh, a AGAs.

He said that he could really read him well based on like, if Becker’s tongue was to the, you know, to the side then, then Becker was gonna serve to the side, things like that. And I’m curious what you think of that story. ’cause there was a few reasons why I thought that maybe AGAs might be exaggerating it for effect, you know, years later that, that maybe it wasn’t as reliable as that.

Uh, so I’m curious what you think of that story.

Carlos: Well, you know, uh, when I heard, uh, that, uh, you know, it really. Kind of a surprise me to be frank with you because you know, frankly, you know, I thought that I. I really studied Boris before that match in Miami, let’s say. You know, and, uh, you know, saw, saw quite a few videotapes of him saw that match that he had, uh, beaten Patrick down in Australia.

You know, again,

Zach: just a quick note here. Carlos is referring to an anecdote about his coaching of Patrick McEnroe and McEnroe playing Boris Becker, which I cut out and [00:22:00] put at the end of this episode.

Carlos: And to be frank with you, I mean, know that I never, I never observed that, you know, of course we all knew that, you know, he stuck his, his, his, his, his tongue out.

Mack used to do that too. John used to, you know, put his tongue out. I mean, you know, but, uh, uh, you know, I don’t think that it was a positioning. Of his tongue that actually said the way he was gonna serve. I, you know, if, if Andre picked that up, good for him because, uh, you know, I never picked that up. And, um, and if Andre picked it up, I guess, uh, you know, Becker’s coaches would’ve picked it up a lot, you know, a lot sooner and say, you know, be careful with that.

You know, I don’t know.

Zach: Yeah, I mean I was, I was skeptical for a few reasons and not to, you know, uh, and I don’t think it’s disrespectful to Agassi to say, ’cause I think it’s possible even to fool yourself about how reliable something was years later when you’re thinking about it. But I think one thing that made me skeptical was Agassi saying that the tell was so reliable.

That he actually didn’t use it all the time, which I, to me, is like, I, I would think [00:23:00] there would, if you had a tell like that, you would, to me, you would just be using it all the time because it’s gonna take Becker a long time to figure out, there’s so many other factors in tennis. Exactly. Like how would, how would Becker figure out where, you know, how you’re beating him based on that, you know?

So that, that to me made me a bit skeptical. Correct me if I’m wrong, but if you had to tell like that, wouldn’t you just try to use it as much as you could?

Carlos: And, and it is amazing that you know that, that, that Andrea’s the only one that actually ever saw it. You know, I mean, with so many players playing Boris, I just don’t understand that part either.

I mean, I think that should have been the headlines, you know, in the tour at that point.

Zach: Yeah. I, I think people ate that up a little bit too uncritically, where I was like, uh, I, I’m not, I think he might be trying to, trying to pump up his, his legacy, which is, you know. Which, which is fine. Um, you know, maybe it, maybe it’s true too, but that’s, that’s a pretty hell of a read to get on somebody and, and for him to say it was so reliable too.

That’s the thing, because most. Most behavioral hotels in poker or anywhere are just, you know, maybe you’ve got a lot that are like 70% reliable or you know, 80%. But for him to be right [00:24:00] say that it was so reliable that it, he didn’t even want to use it all the time, was kind of like, yeah, that, that, that made me a bit skeptical.

Carlos: Now Andre, Andre was an incredible competitor, no doubt about it. I mean, look, he’s one of the greatest players, you know, ever to play the game, you know, no doubt And, uh uh, but, um, his ability to compete was. Incredible, as we all know. But really the way he played his game, he basically suffocated you, you know, with his speed.

You know, he, he, he, he accelerated the game almost like if he was a, a spider, just sort of a grabbing you into his web, you know what I’m saying? He was very fast and as he started to, to, to get on a row, you know, he would serve up, you know, 10 seconds after the last, after the last point, you know, you, you would get the ball and.

Boom, he was ready to serve. And in the game of tennis, I don’t know if you know, I mean, you know the server. You know, if the server is ready, believe me or not. I mean, uh, uh, the, uh, uh, the receipt, the, the guy who’s [00:25:00] receiving it has to be ready, or you’ve got to raise your arm, you know, and say, I’m not ready.

And, uh, the, the clock’s still ticking, you know, and I have, uh, the, you know, the full 25 seconds. Before I accept, uh, you know, your serve, but most players get into that sort of a, he got into his speed and got suckered into it and, and, and just, you know, played right up to what he wanted. You know, he wanted to get you off your timing and then, and bring you into his timing.

Uh, he was not only fast in between points, always ready. You know, to accelerate the match. But, uh, the way that he controlled, like we were talking about on top of this conversation, you know, about hitting the ball on the rise and just being on top of the ball inside of the court gave you no time whatsoever.

He was all over, you know, that ball. So, uh, yeah. You know, he. He, he was good str Yeah. Strategically, he was an incredible player to play against. There’s no

Zach: doubt about it. Well, I think that story was also interesting too, because it’s kind of in poker [00:26:00] and I think in other games too. It’s the using tells, using behavior to, uh, inform a decision.

It has a sexy element to it. Like it’s a, an exciting thing. So I think there can be an incentive in poker, for example, for somebody say like. Oh yeah, I did that. ’cause I had a read on him. You know what, and I kind of think there might be some of that incentive going on with that story. Like whether he is, you know, exaggerating it or whether he is misremembering it or whatever.

I think there’s an incentive to, to show that I have such dominance over players that I can get these amazing reads on them. You know, there, it’s a, it’s a sexy part of of games in general. Yeah,

Carlos: that would be. So, you know, the other tells, if you will, when you ask me, I mean, are there all the patterns? You know, there are patterns.

For instance, as, as it pertains to cross courts and down the lines for certain players, you know, that you can actually, uh, read early on, or if you watch tapes from, uh, your opponents, for instance, there is what always called directionals in tennis, which is, um, uh, taught by a lot of coaches and, uh, and, [00:27:00] and, and when you are a junior player, you start, um, you know, playing so many matches and you start getting into that, those directions.

That means, you know that if the ball comes in cross court. You’re better off going back cross court for more control and keeping that ball going and not change that direction unless that ball is not pressuring you. So is it like a sitter, for instance? You know, then you can change directions. But if the ball is coming in with a fairly heavy pace.

You’re better off just going back to where, you know, uh, uh, that ball came from, you know, even if it’s a down the line, for instance, you know, to try to change directions, you know, from a heavy paced ball. So that’s not really sort of a, a read. Uh, on an individual player, but really, um, uh, sort of a basic, kind of a

Zach: situational read.

Yeah,

Carlos: yeah. Situational read that, that makes more sense, you know, to go back to where the ball came from rather than changing the directions if the ball is heavy and is still pressuring you. Uh, so [00:28:00] that goes on when you are playing tennis, for instance, you see a lot of those trades, cross court shots, you know, you know, when you watch these guys going cross courts to cross courts, you know, and just banging the ball.

Well, you know, what they’re doing is doing exactly what I just said and waiting for the first one. That can actually pops up a little more defensive shot. Then the next one’s got the op, the opportunity to change. You know that the direction of that shot. So that goes on into that metal mental battle because you are going cross court, cross court, and then all of a sudden your shot.

Went up, you know, a little more defensive, so you’re kind of on the roads because you don’t know that guy has the opportunity to change the, you know, the direction. But will he, you know, or not? Mm-hmm.

Zach: Uh, I’ve heard in, uh, like in fencing and other sports, there’s, there can be a tendency for most right-handed players when they’re playing left-handed players.

Uh, playing those players is tough because they’re not used to playing, uh, left-handed opponents who have different, you know, different [00:29:00] patterns. And I’m curious, does that. Play a role in tennis. Are, are, are left-handed players, uh, tend to be tougher to play against just because you’re not used to playing against left-handed players.

Definitely

Carlos: no question about it. I mean, look, uh, I’m righty. And, uh, I remember growing up, I mean, you know, it was a nightmare to play against, uh, you know, good lefties. Mm-hmm. You know, growing up because, you know, even at my club when I was growing up, you know, there was only one lefty guy. I mean, and, uh, you know, for.

10 others of us, there were varieties. I mean, so, so you never really play that much against the, against the lefties. But the fact is, yes, it is very different than playing lefty because, because, um, I don’t know about fencing, but in tennis, the spin. Comes out opposite than what you, than, than, than you use to a righty.

You know, particularly on the serve, it’s a different spin. You know, the spin is opposite the ball, of course, by being spun, lefty spins it, you know, in a different, uh, in a different way than the righty does. And for some reason [00:30:00] lefties have, um, always had, uh, much easier time angling a serve off the ad court.

Then, uh, righties have to, you know, a serve, let’s say from the Dee court, which it should have been the same thing, right? I mean, you know, a righty should be able to angle it from the deuce side just like a lefty does on the ad side. But for some reason, lefties, uh, have a easier time. You know, serving wide from the ed court than righties have from the Deuce court.

Zach: Why would that be?

Carlos: Yeah. Well, perhaps it’s because of, you know, when you are lefty and you’re beginning to play tennis, you know, in a young age, you know, you, you kind of, uh, perfect that slice, you know, from the ed court, that that basically opens up quite a bit of the court for you and it becomes more of a natural, you know, sort of a serve for a, for a lefty, whereas the righty.

Doesn’t take that much advantage, you know, of that, um, of that old that, that, that, that wide serve, even from the deuce side and the righties, they [00:31:00] do serve, you know, wide, but um, um, uh, they don’t serve at the short, wide. Which is what opens the court and the lefty, somehow they realize that they can spin it, you know, shorter on the ad court, on the ad box and open up the court a lot more.

So, uh, it is not that physically you are more capable, but it’s just the way things progressed. Mm-hmm. You know, uh, progress with a, with a lefty on the righty. So, um, another little story here. You know, I remember when John was, uh, you know, a junior. Player still, uh, his serve was quite different than, um, the serve that you accustomed to, to see him play when he was, you know, number one in the world in 84 and so forth With that trademark, a stance of his, you know, almost backing away from the court and, uh, and hanging, you know, his upper body down low.

And, uh, those, uh, trademarks from John er. You know, those came about after college actually, you know, after he had [00:32:00] already reached the semis, you know, Wimbledon in 77 and played the NCAAs for Stanford in 78. In 79, when he was actually turned professional, he started realizing that, you know, he served, needed to improve, you know, order to be able to keep up with the, with the big boys, and, uh, and so he started to.

You know, so to, to close his stance more and more and more to the point where he was almost, you know, with his back towards the neck. And, uh, and, and the idea, you know, was obviously to try to hide the serve just like a, a, a baseball pitcher, you know, would be pitching, you know, at, um, at a batter. And, and incidentally, you know, by lowering his upper body the way he was, you know, where he was basically relieving back pain.

Believe me or not. But as it turned out, you know, by, by doing that, the bending and relieving back pain actually had another positive, uh, uh, uh, uh, side effect, which was to relax his shoulders as well, which most of the players before they serve, they’re so tight on their shoulders. That’s the reason why, you know, their serve is not as.

[00:33:00] As fluid, uh, and as well timed because of the tension on the shoulder. And, and, and by bending his, uh, upper body, you know, that also relaxed his shoulder, you know, and that kept him, you know, very well timed and, uh, uh, on his surf. But back to the point. And so when he was a junior, you know, uh, I. About the, uh, the can opener, you know, lefty served from the ad court and he just basically could do that with no problem, you know, just to toss the ball and just, and just has a nice slice, you know, that basically curved it in short, maybe six feet short of the, of the service line.

That was a tough ball to return because, you know, you left your court completely open at that point. And, uh, rod Laver, you know, was his hero, my hero growing up. You know, that was like a automatic, you know, for Rod, rod always come up with, you know, to, to the line on the AED court serve that can opener, get up to the net and it was a backend [00:34:00] volley cross court, you know, just boom, boom, you know, just the automatic right there.

And Mac picked that up and it was became an automatic point for Mac too. You know, white serve short, white serve, first volley cross court, and um. A back. Uh, so, uh, so then we talked about it. I said, well, you know, it’d be nice if you can just do it from the Dee side. And Mack perfected that, um, a wide serve from the Dee side too, which most of the, of the lefties don’t have it, you know, but, uh, that’s how good he is.

I mean, he could adapt. You know, to, uh, to a new shark very, very easily. Uh, just because he knew that that would just, uh, increase his arsenal, you know, uh, when he was competing.

Zach: Mm-hmm. So, le let’s talk, uh, a little bit about what, what you’re up to these days, and if someone wanted to, you know, say, hire you for, uh, some coaching, how, how they would go about that?

Carlos: I’m getting up in, in age these days. Okay. Zach and, uh, for 33 years after I published the, the book tournament Tough and it was published, uh, worldwide. [00:35:00] I, I started a tennis camp, a summer camp. Based on that method, the methodology to have been tough, which was predicated by what we’ve been talking about, you know, the mental side of the game, the 50 minutes, how to get these junior players to, to understand, uh, how to play the 50 minutes that they’re not hitting the ball.

And, uh, so we started with the, uh, tennis camps in 19, uh, 85, about, uh, four years ago. Uh, at my age it was, uh, getting a little tougher, you know, um. 68 going up 69. So it’s a, it’s a little more difficult to, to be on top of things the way I was for 33 years. And I thought I had a, a nice run and, uh, and it’s time for me to, uh, uh, to just, uh, retire and, um, and have a good life under quotes.

Well, at that point, three, four years ago, I started really following my son. My son carried the torch and he’s now a college coach. Uh. Men’s coach of the University of South Carolina. [00:36:00] So I started to follow his, his activities and watch him his matches. And, uh, it was wonderful to see my son following my footsteps.

And so I caught the bug again. And, uh, you know, we started realizing that, uh, you know, he’s dealing with all of these recruits that are junior players, uh, that. You know, he’s recruiting to play in his college team. And we talked about, you know, those shortcomings of the junior tennis players and their relationships with parents.

Uh, that had a lot to do with how those players are competitively mature or not by the time they get to college. You know, and the coaches, college coaches have to deal with that. And sometimes at that point it’s almost too late. You know, because there’s so much, so many things have been grooved during the junior years that it takes the college coach, you know, two or three years to be able to break some of those patterns.

And that led me to believe and say, wait a minute, you know, what am I doing here? Retired. I. While, you know, there are so many tennis families out there that are still going through the [00:37:00] ups and downs of, uh, having a junior player in, uh, in the household. This thing hasn’t changed since I was, you know, I started playing tennis when I was six, seven years old, having lessons at the tennis club of Sao Paulo.

’cause my dad was the president of the club, you know? His son had to start taking tennis lessons at six and seven. And then I, you know, and I played probably from 10 years old up until three years, uh, four years ago. Daily, you know, in my life what was happening back then in my household when I was a junior player, I.

With my father and mother that did not like competitive tennis was the same thing that is happening now 50, 60 years later, uh, with families that are going through the same process. It is a very difficult because of the game is, is is an individual game. So, long story short, uh, I caught the bug and I want to continue making some contributions.

So, um, pretty soon I, I, I’m going to be. Launching a, uh, uh, interactive sort of a program that, uh, [00:38:00] families can, um, sign up and, uh, I wanna do the job right, and to do the job right. Basically, you need to be able to not just, uh, you know, sell videos and, uh, you know, and hope that they learn something, but you’ve gotta have, uh, you know, hands-on interaction.

You know, with a, with a player, a junior player and that their supporting system, people don’t realize how important the support, the support system of a junior player is Like, you know, and that what is that support system? Obviously the parents, then the coach, but then the environment of that kid is very important too.

You know, his friends. So to balance that is very important. And you know, what very few parents or players even think about balancing the support system, uh, or how to set roles. For those support, for that support system. So I still think that I can be, you know, uh, contribute and, um, and I’ll be launching, um, uh, that, uh, you know, within the next couple of months.

Zach: What, in the meantime, what’s the best way for someone to get in touch with you?

Carlos: They can go up to my website, carlos guffey.com,

Zach: as you say. I mean, [00:39:00] it’s, it seems so obvious that there’s so much, you know, when, when you talk about someone’s personal, uh, situations and family situations, there’s just, there’s so many, um, factors there, because if you don’t.

If you have things bugging you in those areas, I mean, I, I can imagine you just, it just SAPs your motivation to win in so many ways. I mean, it’s a, it’s, it’s astounding to me that so many people do have such, you know, strong competitive urges. You know, I, and I guess I, it might be because I, you know, I’ve had some anxiety and depression in my life.

I’m, I’m always just amazed at how many people have that. Energy to, to compete at that’s at, at that level, you know, and I, I guess that’d be kind of the thing that you would be working with them towards if they have some obstacles in their, in their personal life or, uh, school life or whatever, that, that would definitely, uh, impact their, their motivations to win and their focus and all that.

Carlos: Well, you know, Zach, the most common, uh, issues in junior tennis from the parental side is that, um, those parents that have not. Competed when they [00:40:00] were junior players. Okay. As you know, you know when you are sitting on the sidelines, you know, it’s very easy, you know, to just say, ah, why did you miss that easy ball?

You know, just when you’re sitting on the sidelines, it’s, the game is very easy. But the emotions that, uh, that kid is going through on the court, just like you said, it’s, it’s, it’s a culmination of what is happening in that moment, but also what, what is happening around his life basically prior to that match.

You are absolutely correct on that, and that comes to play. Right there in that, that very moment. And it has a lot to do with missing that easy shot, you know, sometimes For sure. You know, so you’ve got to be able to, to step back and analyze the environment of that junior player is in, uh, the relationship, you know, between the parents and the child.

Because as I say, you know, it all starts out, uh, as a, as a wonderful thing and you know. Let’s get little Johnny or Little Mary to play tennis, you know, is so much fun. It’s a great healthy activity. He is [00:41:00] a sports for a lifetime and it’s so nice to see little Johnny hit a ball over the net and be happy.

And Little Mary, he comes out. You know, and essentially make new friends at the club and so forth. But until they start playing tennis tournaments and get into that trap about, you know, getting ranked and uh, and then losing matches and, uh, you know, and the cost of taking the kid to the tournaments, you know, then parents come up at, uh, at one point and say, Hey, little Johnny, little Mary, um, uh, listen, you know, uh.

You know how much it’s costing you enough to give you private lessons and to get the airplane to go play the nationals, and, uh, you know, and you just didn’t do anything pH wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong approach right there. Oh yeah. Okay. You know, the kids don’t know about return of investment, you know, so, so forget about that mom and dad, you know, where you can spend as much money as possible, but the return of investment is not, is not the priority for on the kid’s mind at that point.

So these things have to be adjusted. So that the parents know what their role is, you know, as a tennis parent. Mm-hmm. For instance, you know, a tennis [00:42:00] parent should never sit, uh, you know, on the back of a tennis court so that, that his kid or their kid can just be looking at you, you know, while they’re serving or receiving.

They never Yeah. That’s a little stressful. Yeah. Yeah. Never a tennis parent should be. On the sidelines, on the top of the bleachers, you know, and just being out there as a supporter, you know, but not obvious. Not only to your own kid, but not obvious to the opponent or to anybody that is out there. Okay?

That’s the role of a tennis parent, right? A good tennis parent, you know? And then from there, there are so many other. Things, you know, and then parents come in and say, uh, you know, to me, but Carlos, you know, I understand all that. You know, they, we’ve got to be compassionate and, uh, we gotta understand and all that.

But you know, what about if, uh, you know, my son goes out there and, uh, you know, makes a fool of himself and doesn’t try, you know, you’re saying that I should come out and understand that. I said no, necessarily. You [00:43:00] know, there is a line to be drawn. But deadline needs to be drawn not after a match that he lost.

You know, it has to be drawn from the get go that the kid is playing junior tennis that look, you know, as a parent, all I expect you to do is to adhere to my, to our family principles on a tennis court, just like I would expect you to adhere to our family principles if we have a guest. You know, in our house and having dinner, you know, on the table, you know, with us, uh, how I expect you as my kid to behave on a dinner table when we have guests goes the same.

When, uh, I expect you to behave on a tennis court because it’s our principles. Certain parents. Don’t care if their kid shouts obscenities, you know, on attendance court. That’s their principles. But our principles are you are not going to shout obscenities. You are not going to cheat to win. You are not going to not try, because that’s not how we are as people [00:44:00] see that draw that draws the line, basically what the parent expects from the kid.

It’s not a win or lose at that point. Mm-hmm.

Zach: Well, yeah, it seems like there’s so many ways to. To make the game unenjoyable, whether that’s, you know, how the parents behave or whether that’s other stresses. You know, there just seems like there’s so many ways to, to make someone not really interested in winning for whatever reason.

Carlos: Yeah. Yeah.

Zach: Well, thanks a lot Carlos. This has been great. Uh, appreciate. You talking to me and yeah, thanks a lot.

Carlos: Well, listen, it’s my pleasure Zach. And uh, one day I’m gonna need to, um, get a few pointers on my poker from you. Oh yeah. Anytime.

Zach: Just, just lemme know. We can, we can do an, an exchange of, of, of knowledge or something.

I’m gonna do the wrap up for the podcast now, but just a note that I move some other tennis anecdotes from Carlos to the end. So if you’re a tennis fan, you can stick around for that. First, I wanted to say that if you enjoyed this podcast, please leave me a rating on iTunes. That’s probably the best way to show your appreciation.

If you’re interested in the subject of reading people or if you’re interested in [00:45:00] poker, you might like checking out My poker Tells Products, which [email protected]. I’ve got several books in a video series. If you don’t play that much poker, I’d recommend my book, verbal Poker Tells, which is probably the book that’s most applicable to non poker situations.

A lot of the verbal patterns in there apply to other games and competitive situations and some to just real life non-game situations. Okay, next up, I’ve got a story from Carlos Coffee that he told involving woman players like John McEnroe, John’s brother, Patrick McEnroe, and Boris Becker.

Carlos: I’m gonna share with you, um, uh, a story that, uh, it is quite personal, but, uh, but it, but it happened and I think that it goes well here in with the theme of this, uh, interview.

So, uh, I was coaching Patrick, um, um, that’s John’s I. Younger brother Patrick McEnroe in 89, 90, 91. This is a couple of years or a year after he graduated from Stanford. Uh, he was a good college player. He was a good, [00:46:00] uh, uh, junior player. And, uh, then after he graduated from Stanford, of course the natural path was to proceed to the professional tour having, uh, a McEnroe.

Uh, last name, um, actually played his favorite in certain cer certain times and not so much in his favorite in other times, you know, played into his favorite because as he was trying to get into tournaments, the tournament directors would love to, to have a McEnroe in their draw. So he got a couple of wild cards that allowed him to play in better tournaments, you know, when he was starting his professional career.

Then, uh, if somebody else that did not have. You know, a famous name, uh, or a, or a older brother that was, you know, as, as great as John, uh, had been. Um, but on the other hand, it put a lot of pressure on you. So, uh, because, uh, you know, once you are awarded a wild card, uh, you wanna make sure that you take advantage of that wild card, get yourself, uh, you know, a few wins, and get yourself, uh, some computer [00:47:00] points and a high ranking so you can keep proceeding stepping up the ladder.

But, uh, when you know that you got the wild card, you know, because of, uh, uh, connection with your last name puts a lot of pressure, you know, on, on sort of a, uh, being a McEnroe. So he kind of felt that pressure in the beginning of his career quite a bit. And, uh, and believe you or not, he lost 16 first rounds.

When he first turned pro. And that’s a lot of losses. That’s a lot of, uh, it’s a lot of suffering, let me put it that way. And, and then at that point, um, you know, we talked and, uh, he says, you know, I think, uh, I’m going to, uh, to quit, uh, you know, uh, the, the tour and, uh, go back and, and do what I was supposed to do that my dad always want us to be, you know, a lawyer just like him.

So I’m thinking about going to Fordham University where his dad graduated and, and becoming a lawyer. And, um, and I said, Patrick, uh, you know, you’ve been playing tennis. I mean, since I met him, you were seven years old when you and I met him. And I said, yeah, you can’t just now, you [00:48:00] know, quit just because, you know, uh, you haven’t been successful.

Uh, you know, you just gotta rethink about this. And I said, uh. I said to him, I said, look, all I’m gonna tell you is this. Um, if you wanna go back, go to school and get your law degree. Just fast forward five years from now, you know, and, uh, and you, you are in a big, uh, law firm in New York City and the US Open Rosen Town, and your friends right now that you are playing there are still playing.

And, uh, you’re gonna have, you know, you’re gonna be excited about going out to, uh, flushing Metals to see, you know, some of those guys play. But you know, when you look at yourself in the mirror that morning, I mean, what are you gonna say? Yeah, I gave all my, my very best and my very best was, you know, 900 in the world.

Uh, or, you know, are you gonna have any doubt that if you had given your very best, you know, was that your very best? And then if he’s not. You’re gonna have to reckon with that, you know, five years from now, you know, he says, well, that’s a, that’s, you put it a very, you know, very well. [00:49:00] I mean, I, I, I need to consider that.

And I don’t think I’ve given my very best for a lot of reasons. I said, well, you know, so then I guess you answered the, the question. So soon after that, he came down to, uh, Florida and, um, and said, can I join the camp? You know, just so I can go back there and spend a couple of weeks with the, with the juniors out there?

I said, yeah, come on down. So for those two weeks we sort of, uh. Got himself into, uh, into loving tennis again and, uh, and, and, and competing and, uh, and feeling good about, about himself and so forth. And, and that’s what started me going back on the tour again with him. And, uh, you know, first you started out, let’s, let’s go out for three tournaments in the fall and then you, you on your own.

And those three tournaments in the fall turned out to be about a year, a year and a half on the tour. And, and it was a. In a very successful, uh, uh, run because, uh, you know, uh, he was the fastest, uh, rising, uh, player in the a TP tour in those days. He [00:50:00] rose from about 900 to, uh, to 28 in the world and in singles, and, uh, rose to number three in the world, in doubles, uh, in, in that period.

But it, it got to a point where he was out now playing against the big boys in the big leagues and uh, uh, and he got to the semifinals of the Australian Open and, uh, lost to Bo Backer. And, but that was a huge, uh, result for Patrick, you know, after everything is been through and now coming back and getting to the semis of the Australian losing tobacco back was one or two in the world back then.

And, um, you know, so, so it was an accomplishment. Okay. Well. Few months later, uh, you know, he’s here in Miami and um, he plays Boris Becker again just two or three months after he lost to Becker in Australia. And, uh, so we are there in Miami getting ready for the match and so forth and so on. And I remember I.

Vividly driving down to, uh, Kik [00:51:00] from where we were staying and, um, you know, silence and, uh, you know, trying to focus and going down to get ready for the match a few hours later. And, um, you know, I just popped the question. I said, uh, what is he thinking? And, uh, you know, he looked at me and said, uh, who? I said, who else?

Boris? I said, yeah. I said, well, you know, he probably is thinking that um, you know, he’s gonna hold, even though I’ve got good returns, he’s gonna hold, uh, you know, nine out of 10 times. And he probably thinking that, uh, you know, my serve is not going anywhere and he probably will break me a couple times a set.

And that’s probably what he’s thinking. I said, um, that’s right. That’s what I think he’s thinking. So you really, we are really talking about what a three and three match. He says probably that’s what he’s thinking. Yeah. I said, well, if he’s thinking that, that we think that he’s thinking that we gotta change that up, don’t we?

You know, otherwise, you know it’s gonna be a three and three match. [00:52:00] And it was interesting because, um, we decided that, um, at that point, uh, jointly that, uh, you know, how can we do that? Well, obviously, uh, we had been working on his serve, uh, to try to get a higher percentage of first serves in because, you know, he did not have like, you know, a pretty a, a real powerful serve.

So the idea was that if you don’t have a big serve, a huge serve, you know, is to put in a higher percentage of first serving play. You know, therefore you will win a higher percentage of points, you know, and then do the job, which is holding your serve. Uh, guys like Boris, uh, or the big servers, they don’t have to put in 75% of first serves in play to win 70% of the first serve points.

You know, they can serve at 55, 50 6% first serves, but they win 80, 90% of the points. So, you know, so, okay. Um, so I said, um, we’ve been working. On getting new to put a higher percentage for a surge in play. I think today we need to [00:53:00] change that up completely. Even if you serve 50%, we need to be able to show Boris that you came in, you know, to just like, uh, you know, pop a few serves, you know yourself against him.

You know, fight fire with fire, you know, with serves. And, um, and if he, if, if he doesn’t work out, if, uh, you know, you cannot put, you know, but 40% of our serves in trying to pop ’em in. You know, then it’s gonna be a little tougher. But look, if we think that he’s three or three match anyway, what di what difference will he make?

It might as well take this chance. Okay, that’s a good idea. And uh, and I said, you know, and with the, and off he served that he thinks he’s gonna hold nine or 10 times. You know, we gotta shake him up one way or the other. And it’s easier said than done. But, but, but what is our option at the moment right now?

You know, he just lost to him three months ago. We think that this is what he’s thinking. So we need to be able to change that up. So the idea was. If a first serve comes in, just do whatever it takes to just bring that ball back. Even if he has to put away, you know, uh, with a second shot that still [00:54:00] makes him feel, uh, through the match that he’s not getting free points, you know, or to, to just off his serve and every time that he serve a second serve, go for it so that we are communicating to him that you missed your first, you’re gonna.

You know, that’s gonna put a lot of pressure on him, you know, on those 30 halls, you know, so he’s gonna slow down that first serving the 30 hall and give us an opportunity, you know, to be able to break. So. Kind of a strategy, if you will. You know, while you are receiving and while you are, while you’re serving against a guy that we knew, you know, that was that great of a player with that great of a serve, you know, that basically had beaten you a few months before.

Uh, and it was extremely confident coming into this match. As it turned out, uh, the, uh, match, um, uh, the, um, I still remember vividly that, uh, uh, that the Becker, uh, won the toss and he elected to receive, you [00:55:00] know, he never really does that. He always, I. He used to just sort of come in and if you want the toss, you just serve it out and just start it at, you know, at one zip.

And, and then always try to take advantages of taking that break and, and cruising through the set, uh, against Patrick. He chose to, uh, to uh, to receive, like saying, you know, I’m gonna break you right off the bat. Kind of, uh, no respect kind of thing. And, um, you know, and, and we were prepared. So, you know, it was beautiful because, uh, I remember Patrick look at me and, and say he chose to receive.

So he started out, you know, gets ready and he pops a eggs down the tee 15 love. So to make the long story short, by going for, you know, that strategic, that strategy that we set up and going for big serves. Uh, and, and, and try to neutralize Boris is, you know, by going for big, uh, on second serves. You know, Patrick won the first set six two and Boris was going completely berserk because he did not know what was happening at that point.[00:56:00]

You know, kind of a, took him a while to assimilate. Why is now working today? Why, what’s going on in here? You know? Well, we had a really clean strategy, you know, that, that luckily was, was working. And Patrick took off on a 4 0 1 in a second set, so he is up 6 2 4 0 1. So, uh, the buzz around the stadium was, uh, you know, wow, you know, Patrick is, is, is about to to trash board as well.

You not so fast because, you know, great champions, you know, when they’re, uh, when they backs against a, uh, against a wall, you know, they come out firing and they come out firing. That’s the reason why they great champions. They just don’t roll over and die. So, you know, believe me, uh, Patrick, uh, was waiting and I was waiting, you know, for Boris to turn it on and he did.

So he basically started to four one on a changeover. You know, he basically came out of the gates and, uh, raised his level and, uh, he got up to four. All that was the [00:57:00] critical game that, uh, you know, Patrick ended up breaking him by playing a very, very tough game and then serving it out at five four for six four.

But that’s a, a story that I told you that basically. Tells you how you can sort of, uh, anticipate what the opponent is feeling about your match and then come up with a strategy that can neutralize that.

Zach: This has been the people who Read People Podcast with me, Zach Elwood, music by small skies.