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Hypnosis and mind control: What’s real? What’s bullshit? | with Martin S. Taylor

A talk about hypnosis and mind control with Martin S. Taylor, a well known British hypnotist (hypnotism.co.uk). Martin is known for his stage hypnosis act but also for educating people about hypnosis and removing the illusions and mystique surrounding it. 

There are some people who make astounding claims that they can control and manipulate people using hypnosis; that they can get people to do things against their will and their ethics. Some of these people claim they can do this quickly, within minutes, and that they can teach you to do the same. There are clearly some impressive things you can do with hypnosis (as Martin will attest) — but there are also clearly many unethical and deceptive people in the NLP/hypnosis/influence space who exaggerate what you can do with it. In this talk, Martin and I try to separate fact from fiction — reality from bullshit. 

Topics discussed include: How did Martin get into hypnosis? What’s going on in a stage hypnosis act? What psychological factors lead to people acting in unusual and extreme ways in those settings? Is there such a thing as a hypnotic “trance”? Is it a special state? Martin’s thoughts on hypnosis used for therapy and self-help. MK Ultra and other government programs related to mind control and brainwashing. The importance of being skeptical about grand claims about hypnosis and mind control. 

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Resources related to or mentioned in this talk:

TRANSCRIPT

Hello and welcome to the People Who Read People podcast with me, Zach Elwood. This is a podcast aimed at better understanding other people, and better understanding ourselves. 

This is an episode about hypnosis and trying to separate the real from the fake. Since I was young I’ve had a lot of questions about hypnosis; what exactly is possible with it; what’s bullshit and what’s real. It’s actually pretty hard to get answers to these questions via online research, from what I’ve found, because there are so many people who peddle hypnosis and influence bullshit who speak in deceptive and exaggerated ways about what’s possible with hypnosis. 

But in this episode I talk to someone who I think will help us separate fact from fiction. His name is Martin S. Taylor; he’s a stage hypnotist but also someone who approaches hypnosis with a lot of realism; he calls what he does “hypnotism without hypnosis” because, during his shows, he transparently explains the psychological factors behind how so-called hypnosis works, and still gets the results associated with stage hypnosis shows. When I was asking around for someone who’d be good to talk to about hypnosis and separate fact from fiction, his name came up a couple times from psychology researchers as someone who’d be good to talk to. Also perhaps interesting; if you know who Derren Brown is, Derren got the idea for his act from Martin. You can learn more about Martin Taylor at his site: https://www.hypnotism.co.uk/; you can watch some videos of his stage act there. 

If you’ve been following my podcast, you know that I’ve been examining the many lies and exaggerations of someone named Chase Hughes, who promotes himself as an expert at influencing people. My investigation into Chase’s immense amount of bullshit was the reason I initially reached out to Martin a few months ago. To give you a sense of the kinds of things Chase Hughes peddles, I’ll read a little bit from his website (https://web.archive.org/web/20141012081856/http://www.chasehughes.com/covert-psychology.html ). 

The CIA developed enhanced mind control methods as a matter of public record

The CIA programmers experiments ranging from programming sexual slaves to creating hypnotic assassins, even involving teenage girls

The methods they used were elementary at best

The Ellipsis Manual contains WORLD-FIRST information available no where else on planet Earth

A person CAN be hypnotized against their will

A person can and will perform extremely violent and anti-social acts under hypnosis, without their consent or knowledge and will disregard safety, morals and law

Using the Ellipsis Manual gives an operator complete access to the psychological compromise of almost any human being they encounter

The Ellipsis Manual teaches operators a world-first set of methods ranging from covert creation of multiple personality disorder to developing mental slavery scenarios, wherein a subject will disregard all beliefs

Farther down this page it reads:

A subject can be controlled for behavioral engineering within as little as three minutes.

A deliberately-induced multiple personality (dissociative personality) can be created in less than an hour.

Farther down it reads: 

From the first day, you will be able to read the thoughts of people you interact with, and you will eventually learn to control them as well. This is most assuredly a life-changing experience that will continue to grow with you forever. The feeling that comes with knowing your words will work like covert instruments of psychological control is an incredible and powerful feeling. 

This is just the tip of the iceberg of the many amazing, astounding things Chase claims he can do and teach people to do. I have a previous episode examining Chase’s many lies and unethical behaviors, which helps make some sense of these kinds of claims. 

And Chase is still promoting these ideas to some large audiences. Chase was recently on Joe Rogan, which to me represented one of many amazing low points for Rogan in terms of guest selection. Rogan clearly doesn’t care much about vetting his guests for obvious red flags and unethical behaviors. 

Chase: “All I’m doing is get you to comply, comply, comply, comply. And that’s just the first, like 30 seconds. I’ve got you to comply with me 15 times. We haven’t even started the hypnosis thing yet. And so it’s just you’re, you’re not aware that you’re becoming compliant. You just think I’m going through some motions”

Rogan: “it’s just hijacking the mammal brain.”

Chase: “Yeah. So it’s compliance, compliance, compliance.”

…

 Rogan: “And it’s not like just guessing. It’s like there’s real programs that they were involved in that were absolutely doing that kind of work.”

Chase: “hundred percent.” 

Rogan: “Yeah. And that’s really crazy to think of.”

Chase: “ And I, and it’s, it gets deeper, like there, there are step-by-step programs they have for creating a Manchurian candidate.”

Joe Rogan: “Okay. Like what’s step one? How do you know when you can get a guy to be a Manchurian candidate? Can you do anybody or do you have to get a vulnerable guy? Do you have to get a guy with a family?”

Chase: “I don’t want to say everybody. I think some of this could be misused”

Chase also talks to Rogan about being able to create multiple personalities in people, which he has referenced on his site. 

Chase: “And then another time they give somebody what they watch a gun being loaded, they split the personality and like do some kind of slide of hand to unload the firearm.

And then they’re told to like, pull this firearm out and go shoot this person in the face. And when the trigger is given to you, like a guy tapping his pencil or something and they do it.”

Rogan: “and this is just hypnosis that caused them, they’re not using any psychedelic drugs or psychotropic medicine or”

Chase: “It’s easier than you think for some people. Right. High authority on one end from of the person doing the program and high suggestibility on the other, then your skills don’t need to be that good. You don’t need to manufacture suggestibility. If you, if they say, here’s this guy, I need to split this guy and he’s not very suggestible, then your skills have to be high.

 But if I have high suggestibility in the target, high authority in the person doing the programming, I have ultimate results.”

“I mean, I may be the number one guy in the country on the mind control stuff. I think I probably am.”

…

So that’s some of the stuff Martin and I will talk about; these kinds of over-the-top, amazing claims about hypnosis and what’s possible with it. Because there are just many people peddling these kinds of things. Chase is just one of many in the neuro-linguistic programming and hypnosis space who tries to promote such skills and trainings. Here’s one random example I found on a quick search: https://www.udemy.com/course/conversational-hypnosis-covert-secrets/?srsltid=AfmBOoqCrSvk7oH4ktYSGtJkf_V1pX8A6R4h1vseS6ZA8hiQ4eQ05pI5

A video course for $44.95 by someone named Scott Jensen titled “Hypnosis: Covert Hypnosis Mastery”. The description reads “The A-Z guide to use COVERT hypnosis to create hidden hypnotic trances with everyone you speak to in seconds.”

Here’s a course at a site coverthypnosis.co.uk/: 

INTER-PERSONAL NEURAL SYNCHRONY = Covert Hypnosis, Conversational Hypnotism, Influence, Persuasion, Negotiation, Rapid Seduction & NLP Mind Control Secrets with Hypnotist Dr. Jonathan Royle & Behavioural Analyst Mr. Paul Gutteridge

Farther down it reads:

Dr. Jonathan Royle – The British Bad Boy of Hypnosis, a name synonymous with hypnotic mastery. With decades of experience, Dr. Royle has unearthed the deepest secrets of the human mind. He is your guide to the mesmerizing world of covert influence.

Mr. Paul Gutteridge – An acclaimed Behavioural Analyst, Body Language Expert, and Consultant in Covert Persuasion & Influence Techniques. Paul’s expertise is drawn from his close association with top-notch intelligence agencies, equipping you with insider knowledge of persuasion.

Some of the things will be seen as clearly silly and over-the-top by most savvy people; not much different than ordering X-ray specs from the back of a comic book.

 But, at the same time, clearly some impressive things are possible with hypnosis. That is obviously true. Even stage hypnosists can do impressive things, as we all have likely seen or heard about. Martin will talk about how he got impressive results his first time trying to hypnotize someone, to his own surprise. This can make it hard to discern fact from fiction.  Which is where the questions come in: Some impressive things are possible so why not these other impressive things? What’s real and what’s bullshit? Where are the lines drawn? How do we know someone making big claims about hypnosis and their abilities is likely full of shit and who’s not? How do we know someone is being ethical or if they’re likely trying to exploit us? Those are the kinds of things I wanted to talk to Martin about. 

** I’ll read from Martin’s site: 

Martin S Taylor has revolutionised stage hypnosis with an astonishing new approach – hypnotism without hypnosis.

He has performed shows at universities and colleges for over twenty years and his new venture – lecturing to schools on the psychology of suggestion – is already massively popular, too.

…

A Hypnotist Who Doesn’t Use Hypnosis?

Let’s just say that again in case it didn’t sink in. Martin Taylor is a hypnotist, works as a hypnotist, has been a stage hypnotist for over fifteen years. Yet he doesn’t use hypnosis. So what’s going on?

Recently psychologists have dramatically revised their ideas about how hypnosis works, and the modern theory is that of social compliance. *** Broadly, this means that there is no altered state when you are hypnotised – no trance, no sleep, and nothing mysterious at all. Hypnosis simply works because the subjects believe it will.

On stage, it works through the hypnotist’s skill in combining three factors: 

And then he goes on to talk about those three factors: Suggestion, peer pressure, and simple obedience. 

He has many reviews for his act and for his educational lectures his site. One review from a teacher read that Martin quote “first explains his profession in astonishingly open terms, but having stripped away much of the false mystique, proceeds to elicit amazing reactions from his volunteers and send the audience into hysterics.”

Okay here’s the talk with Martin S. Taylor:

[MORE COMING SOON]