A talk with Calvin Wayman (Twitter: @calwayman), who was raised in a fundamentalist Mormon cult, with four mothers and 44 siblings. This world was everything and everyone he’d known. At the age of 30, he left that world, and was as a result suddenly isolated from everything that had previously given his life meaning.
We talk about that experience with a focus on the existential feelings of isolation and loneliness that accompanied it. Topics discussed include: how he began to question his world; factors he sees as present that made him someone willing to question things; Plato’s allegory of the cave; The Matrix and our willingness to take the “red pill”; how his community and family reacted to his decision; the human desire for certainty; and more.
A transcript is below.
Podcast episode links:
Resources related to or mentioned in this episode:
- Calvin Wayman’s book Fish Out of Water
- Mirror article about Calvin Wayman
- Anthony Padilla interviews Calvin
- Wikipedia entry for Plato’s allegory of the cave
- Previous episode about how we handle threats to meaning
TRANSCRIPT
[Note: transcripts will contain errors.]
Zach: Welcome to the People Who Read People podcast, with me, Zachary Elwood. This is a podcast about better understanding other people and better understanding ourselves. You can learn more about it at behavior-podcast.com.
On this episode, I talk to Calvin Wayman about his experience leaving the fundamentalist Mormon cult that he was raised in. He had four mothers, and 44 siblings. And when he left the church, at around 30 years old, he was essentially banished from the world he had known.
I wanted to ask Calvin about the anxiety involved in questioning his beliefs, and his fears of social isolation. I think isolation, and fears of being isolated, are key drivers of human behavior, and can help explain so much of the extremes of human behavior. So I wanted to ask Calvin some details about that part of his experience: what was it like to think about leaving everything that had previously given his life meaning?
Along the way, we talk about some specific beliefs of the religion that Calvin was raised in; we talk about what factors he thinks contributed to making him someone who’d leave such an environment when others might stay even when they have similar doubts; we talk about The Matrix and people’s willingness to take the so-called “red pill;” we talk about how his family and community responded to him saying he was leaving; we talk about how often the hard part is not being in a cult but leaving the cult; and we talk about how us humans seem to have a big need for certainty, and why that is.
A previous episode that I see as very much related to this one is the talk I had with Stephen Heine about the Meaning Maintenance Model, which is about how we react when our sense of meaning is threatened. So if you like this talk, you might enjoy that previous one, and I have quite a few other episodes about psychology and mental health.
A little more about Calvin in his own words: Calvin is an author, speaker, and entrepreneur. When he left his fundamentalist Mormon family and community five years ago, he left everything he ever knew in pursuit of living a life that felt true to him, vs the life he was taught that he should live. Today Calvin describes his core mission as wanting to empower others to think for themselves and make a life that is their own. He’s the author of Fish Out of Water, which has the subtitle: The Guide to Achieving Breakthrough and Permanently Transforming Into the New You.
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Okay, here’s the talk with Calvin Wayman.
Zach: Hi, Calvin. Thanks for coming on the show.
Cavlin: Zach. Super happy to be here.
Zach: Yes. Maybe we can start with, you know, this is probably a, a pretty big subjective question, but when you say you were in a, a cult, uh, how do you, how do you personally distinguish between, you know, a cult and a and a religion?
Calvin: This has been such a. Evolving question in my mind because for the longest time when I was in it, and even a short time after leaving, I didn’t call it a cult. Um, to me there’s a few factors, but one of the biggest ones is. It’s so high stakes for being in and high stakes for leaving like Mm. Like just no, like it’s us versus them in a very extrem effect [00:04:00] way.
Like there’s this incredible fear of like leaving it, let alone the centralized authority within it. Usually it’s an individual figure, but it could also be like, in my case, like a council of figures and just not having that autonomy. Of moving, not just within it, but the idea of leaving it is incredibly fearful.
Like you could, you know, in my case, go to hell be damned. Um, just feeling like your soul is threatened. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I, I don’t think there’s, like, I, I know there’s like the bite model, how you might need what, you know, is a cult and stuff like that, but. To me, it’s not black and white cult-like behaviors on a spectrum.
I mean, I see it other places in society that aren’t exactly a cult. There certainly are some religions that have cult-like elements. There can be yoga classes that feel culty. But um, yeah, I think the, this whole, like it’s us versus everyone else, but if you leave, you’re like shunned or you’re very afraid of [00:05:00] being an autonomous person moving around it or leaving it.
That’s what, to me, makes it feel. Like an actual cult,
Zach: kind of the, uh, the all encompassing nature of the, uh, of the requirements of being in the group, right? Yeah. Yeah. Um, so are, would you care to give some details about the group’s beliefs?
Calvin: Yeah. So I grew up fundamentalist Mormon. Some people have who are probably listening to this would’ve heard of Mormonism, fundamentalist Mormonism came out of the LDS church when the LDS church started changing some doctrine around, especially polygamy.
So earlier history in the Mormon church. You know, Joseph Smith, the founder, was a polygamist. Brigham Young was a polygamist, but then the federal government started to really pressure the church to, to do away with it. And there were church, uh, properties that were being seized. And it was around the time that Utah was trying to become a [00:06:00] state to be part of the union and stuff like that.
And finally, the LDS Church acquiesced and. Gave up plural, marriage or polygamy, which was at the time taught as like a very sacred practice that was like a commandment from God as the one way to live. That’s why they were prophets or leaders in the Bible, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob or whatever that like had multiple wives and concubines.
’cause God was like, this is the way to. This is the way to live. So when the LDS Church changed, that’s where fundamentalism was born. And so the most infamous belief is that the belief in polygamy, of course, there’s other ones that evolved or devolved over time, depending on how you look at it like, uh.
You know, this absolute power and authority in the, the leaders in the church. ’cause they’re the, they’re like, it’s taught that they have this thing [00:07:00] called the priesthood, which is the authority to act and speak for God on earth. And you can kind of a imagine. How that can devolve into things or how power can, major power.
Yes, incredibly so. Um, but yeah, there’s a lot of different paths, pathways we could take as far as like beliefs. Uh, as silly as, you know, I didn’t, I I grew up never, never swimming because for some reason, and fundamentalist Mormonism, uh, the devil controlled water. Hmm. So I taught myself how to swim about three years ago when I left.
Uh, I left more than three years ago. Uh, about five years now, but taught myself to to swim because that was a thing. Um, you know, we had these things called the garments cover your body. Completely. Don’t let the, the world see the garments. So couldn’t wear short sleeves or shorts. My family that something even, uh, particularly
Zach: even that’s something even non fundamentalist Mormons have, right?
Calvin: Yeah, yeah, exactly. They believe in, yeah, they believe in the garments. Um, we kept [00:08:00] ours like, uh, I guess more original because they changed it to be shorter, to, to be easier to, for clothes to cover them. Mm-hmm. Ours were like super long, of course, super traditional beliefs around men and women. Uh, women in my church should only wear dresses, never wearing pants.
My family never celebrated almost all holidays. There’s a few we could do like Independence Day or Thanksgiving, but no Christmas. I grew up with no Christmas, very little birthday celebration.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Calvin: Very much into not having any sort of like worldly view. You know, I was homeschooled so it wasn’t around the public almost my entire life, uh, my first part of my life until I went to college, which that’s kind of a turn into the story, but we were taught that, you know, the outside world was evil and that sort of stuff.
So yeah, was just very kind of shut off from the outside world. And then of course there’s other beliefs around like race and that sort of thing [00:09:00] that we think. Are completely gone and went away. And of course we hear like echoes of the past around racism and stuff like that, but in my church it was like very clear, actively, unapologetically racist.
Zach: Right? In the Mormon Bible, they have something about. Beliefs in about black people being a different kind of people and being cursed or something like that, right?
Calvin: Yeah, yeah. Where it comes from is, there’s this old story of the pre-existence where there was this, before we were born, two people in heaven presented a plan for God, Lucifer, and Jesus, and Lucifer said.
I’m, I’m gonna like, the plan is like, let’s give the spirits a body and like they’ll do, um, they can do no wrong and they can return back into your presence. And Jesus’ plan was like, people can sin, but I’ll die for their sins. And, and the honor goes to you, God, when the devil’s like, the honor goes to me.
And [00:10:00] of course, God chooses Jesus’ plan. And so devil, the devil like Lucifer revolts and creates this strange war in heaven and God has to kick out. Lucifer and one third of the hosts of heaven. This is the story as it’s told and and so that’s what created Hell is one third of spirits that were on Lucifer’s side.
The rest of us, you and I were on Jesus’s side. That’s why we’re even born to this day, but here’s where the story gets crazy. One third was cast out with Lucifer. One third are people like you and I like the fact that we’re born here on this earth, shows us that we chose his plan and fought for him, but there was one third that couldn’t decide whose, whose side to pick.
Couldn’t decide Lucifers or Jesus’ and g us who that one third was. Mm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. African Americans, that’s what we were taught. Mm-hmm. And so [00:11:00] we were taught that like God was gracious enough to give them a life and a body. ’cause that’s why we’re here, is to have a body and to choose good over evil and like evolve and to hopefully evolve far enough that we could ourselves become a God, which is another belief of, uh, Mormonism, but Right.
You get your own planet or something. Right. You get your own planet. That’s a common one. But really what it is, the reason you get your own planet is because you become a God. A god of universes. And some people think of it as like a, a planet, but it could, like, the way I was taught is like a whole universe, multiple planets.
Like we, there was a council of gods that created the universe and there’s other gods and other universes and stuff like that. And if you keep on choosing good, then you’ll keep on moving
Zach: along. The multiverse, uh, must really fit, fit into the Mormon. Uh, you know, they, they have no problem with that.
Totally.
Calvin: Yeah. But yeah, just to wrap up the. The, it was taught that, um, yeah, God was gracious enough to give black people bodies, but they should [00:12:00] be like it. It’s divinely written that they should be like second in line or subservient to everyone else, which of course is mm-hmm.
Zach: Worship. So, uh, how, how common was it for someone in your group to leave and, oh, I guess I should start with how, how big was the community we’re talking about?
It was a pretty, pretty large community, right? So fundamentalist
Calvin: Mormonism, I. As a movement is pretty large. Um, based on some estimates it could be 40,000 to 60,000 people, something like that. Mm-hmm. Uh, which I mean, fairly large, like, but there, there are different factions of it. Mm-hmm. Because so many people in fundamentalism are obsessed over who’s in charge and who has power.
’cause they’re, they’re, it came out of like. We’re the true church, not the LDS church. And so that I,
Zach: right. Who is the true, who? Who has the true truth? Yeah.
Calvin: Yes. And who actually has the, the priesthood authority. And then throughout the [00:13:00] last a hundred years or so, there have been, I. Many different break offs within fundamentalism because it’s like, oh no, we’re the ones that’s truly keeping it on.
So the one that I, the, the one that’s most infamous that people will know is, uh, Warren Jeffs FLDS. Mm-hmm. So Warren, Jeffs is in jail for life, marrying child brides and that sort of stuff. My church and his church was once the same church in my dad’s generation, and then there was a split off. And that split off created mine known as the work or the work of Jesus Christ.
And my league church, uh, had about 2000 members, so relatively small. Warren Jeffs, I think to this day is estimated around 10,000 for just his. But yeah, then there’s like, they’re spread out of different fundamentalist churches that have the pretty much identical beliefs in terms of. Polygamy in terms of what’s known as the plan of salvation, why we’re [00:14:00] here, where we’re going, some of the beliefs I’ve already mentioned today.
Yeah, and the only difference is, well, who? Who gets to have the, the say and every single one of them, the one thing that’s in common is they all have this belief that we’re the one true, true church,
Zach: you know? Mm-hmm. You, you said you went to college, so was it common for people to go out into the world and, and um, for them to let you go?
So it sounds like they weren’t super restrictive in that way. Sorry, is that correct?
Calvin: Uh, so I have um, I have 45 or 44 siblings, and still to this day, I’m the only one of us that has gone to college. Were they upset that you went? So, to directly answer your question, it was not common. I had to convince my dad and my grandfather, who was in, who was one of the church council members to let me go.
I. So I was one, I was one of this. Mm-hmm. I was this curious kid always wanting to like learn truth and knowledge. [00:15:00] And I had completed high school with a home program. I had my high school diploma, had worked in my dad’s construction company for a couple of years. Hated construction, wanted to do something else.
So yeah, I basically had to, like, I first talked to my dad, he was like, I want to go to college. He was not into the idea at all. Mm-hmm. Because of course, that’s why I was homeschooled. Because he didn’t want me out in the, in the outside world to be tainted. And with me being older, he was a little bit more warm to the idea.
And he was like, well, what do you want to go for? And I said, well, I wanna go for business. And so what he did is he was like, go talk to your grandfather and if he’s okay with it, then I think I’m okay with it.
Zach: And so I went to him. Yeah. They can’t, I mean, they can’t be too surprised that you left, I’d imagine, because going to the, the decision to go to college, probably they knew well we’re on the path to losing him.
Right. Would you agree with that? I
Calvin: don’t think so. No. No, not at all. Not at all. Not at the time. Because in the meeting with my [00:16:00] grandfather, there had been some people in the community that have gone to college for, to be a nurse, let’s say. Mm-hmm. When I was talking to him. I said, I wanna go to college. He was just sitting there and he is like, well, what do you wanna go to college for?
And I says, I wanna learn business. And he sat in his chair for a second and was like, you know what? I think that’s probably a good idea because there’s some of us in the community, like there’s so many of us that are in construction again, my dad had a construction company. There’s plumbers, there’s electricians.
There’s no one that has a business degree. Mm-hmm. It might be a really good idea for us to diversify a little bit and for somebody to understand business. And so he gave me his blessing and said, go. But then he gave me some, uh, what’s the words? Like conditions or, uh, strict recommendations. I’d say. He said, so go to college, but here’s what I’ll say, don’t live on campus.
Live at your dad’s house. Go to classes, go home, go to classes, go home. Don’t make friends. Don’t hang out after [00:17:00] school. Definitely don’t go to parties, don’t do any, in his words, extracurriculars. Go there, get education and leave. Mm-hmm. If you do anything outside of these recommendations, then you’re gonna be on the devil’s ground and then the devil can handle you.
But if you do what I say and go to classes and go home, then you’ll be protected and you can’t. Fall away. So most definitely, they, of course, they were concerned and that’s one of the reasons they were like careful when I was getting the blessing to go. But then with those conditions, like I. I don’t think they were like planning on me leaving.
Zach: They’re pretty, they’re pretty confident. ’cause it sounds like they have a pretty high retention rate in, in business speak terms. Yeah, exactly. Not many people are, not many people are leaving.
Calvin: Well, some people, a lot of people leave here and there, but it’s, I mean that’s another thing too, but depending on how fast we wanna forward in the, the story, but um.
People leave and fall away here and there. I was the one of the first ones to leave quite publicly and like post, and I’m like,
Zach: [00:18:00] Hey, I’m out. Yeah. Let’s, uh, let, let’s pause it there and, and I’ll ask you, you know, at, at that point in your time when you were going off to college, did you, were you still pretty much a, a true believer or in your mind, were you Oh yeah.
Say you were. Yeah.
Calvin: Oh yeah. Yeah. I was in it, man, like hook, line and sinker. I wanted to go, not because I was doubting it, I just wanted to keep learning. You know, I was very curious and there was this quote from Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism. He said, man is saved no faster than he gains knowledge.
And it was just a quote that was always said in my upbringing. And I was like, that makes so much sense. Like you wanna keep on growing and learning. And so there’s like a belief in like continuing to advance and to learn. And so I was like, I want to keep on learning. You know, I don’t wanna stop. And so, yeah, I was going there just to keep that going.
Zach: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When, when you left to go to college, how long after that did you start to question things and what was that decision making [00:19:00] process like? If you could give a, I know that’s a big, a big question. May, maybe you could give a summary of, it’s a big
Calvin: question with a very simple answer within one week.
Zach: Hmm.
Calvin: So I’m, I’m going to school for business. Right. But to get any degree, you have to take general education. And so one of the classes I took, I can’t remember if I, if this was a requirement or if I just needed at least the credits for this, but long story short, in my first semester I had to take a philosophy class.
I. That is where, oh man, it is not, if you wanna wrap one week of philosophy, uh, one day, one class. So one class. It’s one single class. So this class, um, I. First of all, the whole semester was themed off of the Matrix in this class, which was fantastic. I had not heard of the movie in the Matrix before, but it was so cool and my professor taught it, the class that, that the matrix was actually based on a really old, [00:20:00] ancient idea from Plato’s time.
Uh, Plato and Socrates known as a Plato’s Allegory of the Cave, but it was that story of Plato’s Cave that created an internal war within myself. That started the entire thing I call that day, that class, the crack. It was the crack that started internally that started to really, yeah, change everything. I.
Zach: A quick note about Plato’s allegory of the cave and what that is in that allegory, some people are living in a cave chained to a wall. The people watch shadows projected on the wall from objects passing in front of a fire behind them. The shadows are the prisoners’ entire reality, and where they find all their meaning.
Someone escapes from the cave and sees the outside world, the real world, and realizes that their entire existence has been a lie based on meaningless shadows. They go back into the cave to tell the people about this, that they need to leave the cave [00:21:00] to see the real world, but the people don’t want to hear such things and they get angry.
Plato theorized that in such a situation, the cave people would try to kill that man for threatening their meaning. Okay, back to the talk I. It sounds like it was very much an internal process. Were you talking to people? Oh, yeah. At that point, outside of the group? No,
Calvin: not, not about this. Okay. No, like, yeah, because all through college, I don’t think I told maybe one person that I, where I came from, maybe like, but nobody knew who I was, where I came from.
I
Zach: just, you know,
Calvin: went there. So pretty much all your
Zach: friends and and family were, were within the group at that point?
Calvin: Oh, yeah, totally. Yeah. Like at that point, I, 99% of the people that I knew had the last name Wayman.
Zach: Mm-hmm. Okay. The same
Calvin: name as my last name. It was, it was friends, family, siblings, all that stuff.
Cousins.
Zach: So maybe we could talk a little bit about the. The fear of loneliness factor. I mean, I, I, I would think it would [00:22:00] be pretty terrifying to leave the people you know, the people you know and love the surroundings, the whole conceptual experience. Oh yeah. Can you talk about that, that fear that must have been in your hardest soon as you started to question these ideas?
Calvin: Yeah. Um. Well, I feel like those things, fear of loneliness, first of all, there was intense fear, but there was intense actual loneliness because what happened in that philosophy class, long story short, is she told us the story of Plato’s allegory of the cave. At the end, she asks these questions like, who are you in the story?
Like throughout most of my life, I, I thought of somebody as I wanted to pursue truth and knowledge. Uh, of course in Plato’s story, one of the guys breaks loose from the chain, um, from the chains and leaves the cave shatters. His whole reality shatters his whole conception of what was real. ’cause he was chained in a cave his whole life with everyone else there.
And that was their whole reality. They knew nothing else. [00:23:00] And the one beautiful thing in their life is shadows appeared on the wall every day, and that was their ultimate reality. And she asked. Can you say that you are the person that would be willing to leave the cave in pursuit of truth, the comfort of everything, or how do you know?
The red pill? Yes, the red pill. Or how do you know? There’s the red pill and there’s the blue pill, but then there’s the, I. Pill that you think is red but it’s not.
Zach: Mm.
Calvin: And that this is something that’s not talked about. Like, and, and it just really hit me because she was like, how do you know that you’re not the one in the cave thinking you are red pilling or you are looking at absolute reality, but all you’re doing is looking at shadows on the wall that is like a projection from someone else.
And it was the way she phrased it. I did this self-reflection and for the first time in my life I realized [00:24:00] everything that I believed up to that point that mattered. Like the most meaningful things about life, why I was there, the beliefs I held. Every single one of them were from my dad, my grandfather, the other church leaders, the books that they told me to read.
And I realized there was nothing that I had internally discovered outside of that parameter. Yeah, you’d absorbed the world. Yes. That’s where the loneliness kicked in majorly because the possibility that I was in the cave scared me so much. It’s hard to imagine. But not only did it scare me, who could I talk to about it now?
Like I wasn’t talking to anybody in the outside world. I couldn’t tell them.
Zach: Right.
Calvin: Who could I talk about that, that was inside? I like the, the thought of of, of telling somebody that you’re [00:25:00] questioning all of this is like that by itself. Did you talk to anyone? No. One I. No one you like, you can’t, like you the, to, to tell someone.
Like, I, I would probably ask questions in, in like indirect ways, but not, no, like, it was a very like, because if, if you’re doubting and then it’s like, what are you, like, you’re gonna get shunned or maybe heaven forbid you’re kicked out prematurely and you’re like, holy crap. So, yeah, that’s where the loneliness really, really kicked in.
And what it, what it just did that day is it put me in an intense study mode and curiosity mode. ’cause I had decided, you know what, if this is true, which I hoped it was, what I realized then is I had not discovered anything internally and secretly, I still hoped everything that I knew was true. Yeah. Like maybe I can prove it Yeah.
Exactly. To myself. Exactly. Mm-hmm. And so I’m like, okay, if it’s true, truth [00:26:00] exists independently of somebody’s projection of it. So I, I can find it outside of this, so I’m gonna mm-hmm. Study it. And, and I hope to God that it points back to this. And of course they’re there. The journey begins. We know how that ended
Zach: up.
Yes, we do. Uh, I, I want, I wanna come back to the, um, feelings of isolation, but Yeah. I’m curious, do you think there were certain qualities that you had, certain experiences you had as a child that made you more likely to be someone who would question these things and be someone who left? Yeah. The group.
You know, for example, were you an older sibling? Were you more of a leader in the community? Were you, do you think you were. Smarter than average. Do you think you were better at being alone, things like this? Anything come to mind as as to why you and not someone else per say? That’s something I’ve
Calvin: been trying to get, wrap my head around a little bit too.
’cause I’m like, was it a certain combination of DNA, what I’ve, I was certainly more curious, I guess, [00:27:00] than average. Mm-hmm. And honestly, I think what did it is being homeschooled. Because the thing that homeschool did is it taught me to figure shit out on my own, but I was, I was a particularly good. Uh, comparatively even to my siblings at school, in home, at home, not ’cause I was necessarily smarter, but I stuck to things a little bit longer ’cause I wanted to learn and I wanted to gain truth.
I, I particularly fell in love with math. And the reason I love math is it wasn’t, it didn’t feel subjective, it felt absolute, but what I think that ended up doing is to, to fall in love with math and to like math. You have to. You gotta learn logic in a somewhat precise way because mm-hmm you can be somewhat logical, but if you skip things, then [00:28:00] it’s easy to get the wrong answer.
I. I think my love for math gave me that, uh, CRISPR logic that I used all throughout my upbringing with different ways. Like there were some things that didn’t make sense that I argued with, but still was able to maintain my foundation and identity within it. And that same reasoning and logic made me realize, you know what?
You can fool yourself, you can be wrong. And I think that’s such a huge awareness. You can be wrong about something that you can full your own mind and mm-hmm. That’s what the tools of logic are good for. Not just to come to a conclusion, but to check the things you’re already believing and seeing if you’re messing yourself up somewhere along the way.
So, mm-hmm. I think, yeah. The curiosity, uh, the, the autonomy were you
Zach: encouraged by, you know, for, for, for your parents’ faults, were, would, is it accurate to say that they maybe encouraged you a bit in your curiosity? I. Hmm.
Calvin: Not
Zach: [00:29:00] particularly. Hmm. It wasn’t like you were known for like, Hey, he’s the curious one, and let’s encourage that.
It, it was just that you just happened to be curious.
Calvin: Yeah. But I, and I also fell in love with computers early on and, but I was kind of known for, yeah, Calvin’s the one that loves computers and stuff like that, and it was somewhat known that, oh, Calvin loves math and that sort of stuff, but. Like, I was never enrolled into any program or summer camp or anything.
Mm-hmm. Like, it, it, it just was, I was just that way. I just wanted to like, learn how things work. I would open things like electronics and figure, try to figure out why it’s working.
Zach: Were you older than your other siblings or? I
Calvin: was the, the 11th of the 45. One of the older kids
Zach: pretty
Calvin: high
Zach: up
Calvin: there. Yeah,
Zach: yeah.
Pretty high up there. Upper percentile anyway. Yeah, exactly. Um, yeah, so yeah, it’s probably hard to know all the, all the, all the many factors that, that lead to these things. It’s
Calvin: so fascinating though. Like, I want, I wanted to sit down with like child psychologists [00:30:00] or, or, or like a group of people and be like, can you kind of like study my brain a little bit in my life and help me understand.
Myself a little
Zach: bit better. Mm-hmm. Well, I imagine so of this, you know, so much of it’s like these random pathways, you know, it’s like we start being interested in something, you know, you start being interested in. Say computers or, or math. And you go down this, the rabbit hole of that world, you know? And one thing leads to another cascading effects kind of, you know, thing.
Yeah. ‘
Calvin: cause ’cause I’m not the only sibling that has left, a lot of my siblings have left at this point. But there’s a marked difference. Like, did you open the floodgates in a way? No, I can’t say that. But my point is, is like, like some little siblings have left, but it almost feels like they found, not all of them, but some of them have found other cult-like things.
That like, it’s almost like they changed on I feel like replacement. Yeah. Like to me, ’cause mine was such a a, an internal deconstruction. It was, why am I believing this? That’s what really what it came to is like, yes, I did study [00:31:00] like history and none of that made sense, but what, what I really came to is it was a very internal journey, a psychological one.
Uh, of like existential. Yeah, yeah, but existential for sure. But I got really curious of like, why do I feel afraid to leave? Why does anyone like the competing fundamentalist churches? Why do they believe it? And of course, when you’re in my church, you’re like, oh, they were deceived. And then I was like, I could then put myself in their shoes.
And they’re like, wait, they think I’m deceived? Mm-hmm. And I, and we were taught, well, we believe this because it’s the true one. That’s why we believe it. And so it made sense, but then I was like, wait, but they, they think it, they think they’re the true one. And so I learned about like, you know, confirmation bias.
Mm-hmm. And the way we trick ourselves to believing something and then tribalism and why leaving is so afraid. ’cause I’m leaving my tribe, I’m leaving [00:32:00] my camp, I’m leaving. I’m getting shunned by those that I put on pedestals my whole life, like my dad and my grandfather, like they were the people that were in charge of my soul in a sense.
Like I had to, there’s this whole law of, of the one above another, or like you are accountable to someone above you. For me to get advancement in the church, I had to be recommended from my dad to the church leaders so that it was so external and, and so then to. Realize I’m gonna leave and disappoint these people that I’ve been trying to impress my whole life so that I could advance and realize, oh, I don’t, I don’t need that.
It’s so, it, it’s so interesting to me. Like the older I get, it’s actually more interesting and the more I’m out of it just to see the, all the internal
Zach: stuff at play, all the foundation, you’re crumbling your whole foundation, which is, I think people don’t really, unless they’ve lived through something like that, it’s really hard to comprehend how mind.
Shaking, you know, mind blowing [00:33:00] and, and terrifying. That is, I think I 100% agree. And
Calvin: I think also that if you realize that it is an internal battle, I think it’s easier for anybody on the outside to understand why anybody would stay or not leave, because it’s not just about the externals, the externalities of belief systems and mm-hmm.
That sort of thing. It’s all this internal. Stuff, the emotional stuff that can, like that is what is making anybody stay in anything. I mean, you see it all the time, like people, like even in politics and other religions and stuff like that, you actually, I start to identify with the group that you’re in.
Like there’s so many different dynamics. It’s not just about is this true or not true?
Zach: I think, uh, so personally, I think fear of isolation is one of the, probably the most powerful psychological force and in existential psychology, you know, they talk about the core existential fears, which is, you know, fear of death, fear of freedom, fear of meaninglessness, and fear of isolation [00:34:00] and, and fear of isolation, I think doesn’t get enough recognition in the sense that I think it, it helps account for so much.
Stress and the seemingly weird and bizarre and desperate things that people do because they’re so terrified of feeling alone and cut off from Yeah. The world. So, to go into my background for a a, a moment, I, I’ve sometimes talked on this podcast about, you know, my so-called, you know, nervous breakdown in college when I dropped outta college midyear because I, I, I just became increasingly unable to function socially and I, I felt like I was losing my mind and.
A big part of that was, uh, feeling isolated, feeling like I was basically becoming more and more distant from the world of people. And I felt like a, you know, a distant planet floating millions of miles away from other people. And it became increasingly, you know, hard to even have a meaningful connection or feel that I could have a, a meaningful connection.
And, uh, and that I say all that just to say [00:35:00] like, that’s probably much more, you know, mentally unwell and extreme than what you experienced or what. Most people experience when it comes to these things, but I’m curious if some of those things were going on for you. Were, were there like, you know, sleepless nights of feeling like you were Oh yeah.
Going crazy and, and these kind of things. Could you talk a little bit about maybe some of that,
Calvin: where that really felt, where I really hit those things was, um, when I actually left. Because at first there were fears of isolation, but then it was actual because. Living in a cult is one thing, and people always talk about like, what was that like?
What was your childhood like? That must have been challenging. The truth is it, it, it really wasn’t. It wa like my childhood wasn’t that challenging. It wasn’t that it was coming to the awareness. The most traumatic thing was realizing what it was and then actually leaving it. That was the hard part.
Because that’s where the isolation really came in, [00:36:00] because when I left, I wanted to. Own the decision. And so I was already, uh, becoming somewhat public with my life just because I, like, I had quit my day job and become an entrepreneur. And so I started posting on Facebook and Instagram, which, you know, at first the church wasn’t like really into social media stuff, but I was a little bit of a rebel and was like, I’m gonna do social media stuff.
But when I left, I posted about it. Mm-hmm. And. It created a shit storm in my community. Uh, people that I thought I was friends with. My whole life just shunned me. Like overnight. You’re the villain. Yeah. It’s, it’s hard to explain. I mean, yes. Sleepless nights. Yes. Weeks of depression. Yes. Suicidal thoughts.
Yes. And then on top of that, you make this gut wrenching decision that you feel is the right decision. ’cause obviously that’s why I made it. And then you have all of [00:37:00] this, not just existential angst like this. You feel all this like pressure and like breaking all of your relationships and it feels like the whole world is caving in on you, and so then you’re questioning the decision altogether, which I had for a little bit.
Mm-hmm. But at the same time I’m like, no. Like I have to trust my gut in that, that I. I want to live my life. That’s not external, that’s listening to somebody else. I wanna follow my own gut and my own internal compass for the first time, even if that meant I was gonna be damned, that’s what I had to come to.
To finally leave, I had to be okay with damnation, if that meant I was gonna be damned for following my own internal guiding system. And so the isolation and the loneliness was intense. Way worse than I feared. Surprisingly,
Zach: am I understanding correctly that, you know, like we talked about the you, you couldn’t tell them that you were no longer a believer and still maintain connections with them.
You were basically, by [00:38:00] definition, you, they would not wanna talk to you. Is that assumed?
Calvin: Yeah, and, and at the time I was a little bit naive. Because I kind of figured, like I had had some, I knew some people that have left, but I still thought, ’cause different fundamentalist groups are more strict than others.
The, the church that ours broke off of, Warren Jess fundamentalist church, like theirs is probably the most strict. Like if somebody leaves, like I have, I have friends that haven’t talked to their mom in like seven years. Because they left and they’re taught to like, leave, uh, or they’re to the point that if the dad leaves, then his family’s taken from him and like assigned to another man.
Mm-hmm. Like, or even if he’s needing to repent, like they, they will send him off to repent and his family can be reassigned. Like that’s the most extreme. Ours wasn’t as extreme, and so I thought that I would still maintain those connections, but people took it. Very personally that I was like attacking the truth, attacking God, attacking Jesus.
And so [00:39:00] even though I, like, I wanted those connections, it just, it just, it didn’t, I, I couldn’t keep them. And so I don’t know if it was something that they were taught, I think they felt me as like an enemy and. The reason I said ’cause you made
Zach: it public.
Calvin: Yes. Yeah. And that I, and that I wasn’t in it. And so, but the other thing too, even if I wanted to connect to them, like I tried to a little bit, like I didn’t feel seen or heard.
So you can’t, even if you’re around people, like you’re, the connection’s not there. Mm-hmm. And so that breeds isolation too. ’cause I would still, like, I went to a couple parties or saw people and stuff like that, but. The connection’s gone. Like there is no, there’s nothing there to, the wall is up, you know?
Yeah. Yep. The wall’s up. We’re on completely different planets right now. Let
Zach: me ask you about the, the making it public part, because I can imagine, you know, that you, you talking about it publicly, I, I could see as, you know, you basically like a desperate attempt to make other connections and be like, [00:40:00] Hey, the world out there.
I, I wanna make connections with you in, instead of, you know, I’m, I’m questioning my meaning over here, so I want to reach out. To this other world and, and start making my connections. Was there a part of that psychologically for talking about it publicly? At the time, I was doing basically
Calvin: a vlog. It, it wasn’t that it was, I was documenting my life as like an entrepreneur.
This was like another episode of like, I. One of the biggest things of this year is I left my religion and I know I’m now gonna have friends and family that see this. And this is gonna be a big shock to you, but I want you to know where I’m coming from. Like I love everything that I come from. I was very, I was very, uh, what in my view, I.
Kind and gentle. I did not bash the religion. It was very of like measured. Yeah. Um, now some people might be asked, what, are you gonna throw it all away? Do you think it’s all not true? And I’m like, what it feels like to me is I feel like a, a boy in his mid twenties that is leaving his parents’ house for the first time [00:41:00] and what it felt like and how old were you?
- And I was like, does when you leave your parents’ house, does that mean. You hate your parents, not necessarily you, you’re grateful for what they’ve given you. It just feels like it’s time to, to keep growing and move on. And, and, and that’s how I framed it. And so I framed it like, here’s the biggest thing in my life, in my entrepreneurial journey, essentially I left and it was the scariest decision of my life, but it’s my life now and here’s to making the most of it.
And so that’s what it was. And so I think it surprised me that I got so much backlash from the community at the time. But it makes sense now because people just felt threatened by it. If you tie back to the Plato story, the guy comes back and tells them that there’s like this whole other world and somebody’s like, what are you, what could be better than our shadows?
And it’s like, don’t you understand? These shadows are nothing very frightening compared to what’s out there. And then they want to kill ’em. Yeah. Because their world is being. Threatened, and it [00:42:00] still happens here and there, like every so often. I, I have, uh, way more love than I have hate, but every so often somebody will see me with a piece of content, hearing something like this or seeing me do comedy, and I’ll get a comment from the community that’s like, um.
The scriptures talks about, you know, selling your soul. Here it is in full display, like used as like an example.
Zach: Oh boy. Uh, do, do you know people or, or do you have a sense that you maybe, that, you know, people in that world who had similar questioning and, and uh, internal, uh, questioning of the beliefs, but decided to stay, you know, because they couldn’t face.
All of that, uh, the accompanying, um, anxiety and, and, and doubt. You
Calvin: wanna know what’s interesting? The, the timing of this is interesting because I just got an anonymous phone call yesterday. The guy didn’t wanna tell me his name, didn’t even wanna tell me which fundamentalist church he’s in. Could be in mine [00:43:00] for all I know.
Could be in Warren’s, could be in another one known as the order could be a different one. And he saw me on a podcast. What, how I was describing it was. His exact experience. Mm. He’s like, I’m starting to question things, but he’s the only one in his family that’s questioning and he’s afraid to tell anyone.
But he just had to talk to somebody that had made that that was out and he saw that I have a life and is like, is it okay out there? Kind of. Mm-hmm. And in the conversation though, this is why I’m bringing it up, that conversations ends. He doesn’t know yet if he’s gonna leave. He doesn’t know if he feels like he, if he can stomach it, if he can.
The, the, the disappointment. He said he knows that his dad would rather he died than leave.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Calvin: And that’s a lot of stress. Yeah. So that, that, to your point, like, I mean finger, like, fingers crossed, like there’s the one thing, having [00:44:00] gone through the process, I sure as fuck didn’t pressure him and tell him that he should.
It has to be step by step because Right.
Zach: Organic.
Calvin: Yeah. It has to be organic and I think that’s what people don’t realize is the psychological potential trauma of your entire worldview crumbling and crashing, and your entire social circle that you’ve known your whole life. It has to be respected. It. I have such a different view on the ethics of truth because yes, there’s something that you might be true, but somebody has to truly be in a place that they can get something.
’cause for you, it might just be, oh, that’s just the truth, but you’re safe. There are some people that it’s not just the truth, it’s not safe. Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s very. Real world consequences [00:45:00] for considering something else. So
Zach: we’ll see how that plays out. Um, when you talked to your dad and, and others in the family about leaving, did they emphasize to you, you know, did they use the, the loneliness factor as kind of a, a weapon to, to scare you with?
Was that something they emphasized? So all up,
Calvin: all my upbringing, it was like if you, it’s talked about if you ever leave, you’re gonna have that, you’re gonna have the fear of, of, uh, loneliness and being like, it’s gonna feel like hell. Like that’s what hell is really, hell is like a, a deep sense of isolation.
And then there’s this, uh, which I believe is true. Yeah, yeah, totally. And then there’s this extra special place in hell for, uh. Called outer darkness or for Sons of Perdition, and it’s for people that it’s like the most torment kind. And so you had all that growing up. But by the time I left, when I tell told my dad, that was like the ripping, the bandaid off that I [00:46:00] was leaving the work as it’s called.
And the main thing he just did is got really sad and like. Asked me why, and then tried to convince me by giving me some books to read. What kind of books? Um, scriptures within the, that’s basically the canon of fundamentalist scripture. There’s like a, of course there’s doctrine and covenants in the Book of Mormon, but then there’s some other scriptures from.
Early prophets like John Taylor and Wilfred Woodruff, and there’s like these prophecies they make. And in those prophecies, it probably speaks to what you were saying where fear of, you know, damnation of your soul, because that’s what it’s so hard to emphasize is you’re taught that yes, not only are you going.
To lose your, your connection to the truth or to your family. There’s this whole other thing that you’re like. Risking your very soul for eternity [00:47:00] like life is. Mm-hmm. We’re taught that life is such a blip in our existence that yeah, if you do this one life right face, whatever sacrifices that the church gives you because you do it well and you bear your cross, then you’re gonna have an eternity.
That’s amazing and you’re gonna keep progressing and be a God someday. That’s really amazing. Right. Big stakes. Big stakes. And if you leave it, why would you, like, why would you give up something so minuscule? For what? For a party to have sex, like, for all of eternity. Like, and, and your soul’s gonna be damned if you do these things anyway.
Like, is that worth it? Are you an idiot? Yeah. Are you stupid? And so that’s what it, like, you have to actually deal with tho and wrestle with those, like, am I willing to risk. Everything. Bet All of eternity. More than everything. Yeah. All of eternity of my soul to make this choice to leave. [00:48:00] And so, yeah, so of course my dad as a good dad would, would wanna save his son.
So he gave me some stuff to, to save me and. Of course that put a kink in our relationship for a while. But the, the, the silver lining, especially with my immediate family, is I’m on good terms with them now. Uh, I’m not on good terms with, um, I’m not on good terms necessarily with people in the community. I.
Especially these days because I, if I notice something radical, I’m open to talk about it. Like my, uh, church leader is quite fiery. The main one, John Timson, like he’ll use fear tactics. Like in church, there’s this church where he’s basically yelling at people. Because my church leaders yell, um, and swear and stuff over the pulpit.
But basically if you even sit in the presence of someone that is speaking against this authority, you know, God’s true priesthood, you’re risking your [00:49:00] very soul, you know, like scaring people, even having friends. Wow. Yeah. In or outside of the church that might dare say. That we’re not God’s amazing anointed humans, you know?
Hmm. They’re putting the pressure on. Yeah. Putting the pressure on. So I’m willing to speak out against that. So I probably, uh, I don’t think I’m gonna have good graces with people in the community at large, but my immediate family, like the siblings I grew up with, like we’re good now. Um, I have the best relationship with my dad.
Than I, that I’ve ever had in my life. Really, just because it’s based on honesty, tragedy can kind of, you know, bring out some good things. And the, um, my dad, uh, after we had a huge falling out and like a fight a year or so after I left, um, just didn’t see eye to eye. Uh, this past year he got diagnosed with stage four cancer.
The thing that did open up is like, you know, [00:50:00] what time is limited. Our whole past and arguments just didn’t matter anymore. And so then we got on like, like worked out stuff. He essentially showed regret for other things that he’s done in his life to me and others and stuff like that. Like basically apologizing, which is something that I never thought I would hear.
And so yeah, I feel really lucky that way. Um. Closer to some siblings than others. You can’t be close to 44. Um, but I can talk to any one of them. We have like a sibling group chat that virtually all of us are in, and then there’s like, I have a, I’m really close to like three or four of my siblings. Of the 44.
So,
Zach: so I’m curious, are you currently religious or spiritual in any specific by the book way, or do you, do you have a sense of spirituality if you don’t have a specific religion?
Calvin: Good question. Um, I, I joke that I joined a new religion that there is currently. One member, and I don’t [00:51:00] think that there are going to be any proselytizing or conversions happening soon.
Basically, the religion of Calvin Wayman. Um, so I definitely, I, in a strange way, I feel more spiritual, like whatever that is. Like, there’s so much loaded stuff around what that means, and does that right? Is that connection to a higher power and stuff like that. But I’m still open to doubting if there is that I, I think I call myself agnostic, but I’ve had some pretty intense experiences that felt really spiritual, if you will.
I. Like, uh, I mean, I’ve, when I left the religion two weeks later, I was in Costa Rica on a seven day Ayahuasca retreat. Mm-hmm. You know, because I wanted to kind of reset and that was amazing. That’s what kind of reset me to like, a core part of me is curiosity and to, and to keep that. But yeah, I’m, I’m open, but I’m very much non-dogmatic.
I, I feel like I’m allergic to dogma in all of its forms.
Zach: That seems to be what [00:52:00] your experiences made you question everything, which I think, uh, and, and I think that actually, uh, I think a lot of people think that skepticism and a sense of, you know, the world being, I. Mysterious and, and spiritual can’t coexist.
But I, I, I’m with you because I Oh, totally. I’m s I’m skeptical of everything. I, I call myself an agnostic because I don’t even, like, the word atheist sounds too certain to me, so I’m just, it feels too dogmatic. Yeah. It’s like I, I like the world. It’s so mysterious and wild to me, like almost nothing you could show me about the truth of it would probably surprise me.
So I think we’re probably on the, on the same page there. Totally. And
Calvin: the, again, the, the thing I was trying to say earlier is like, uh, like the, the, the gift in all of this wasn’t just the externalities of this is what my church believed in. It doesn’t believe that, like coming to this understanding of. Of thinking, the thinking that keeps people in.
I try, I, I notice it in other things that might not even be a cult that’s like, oh, this kind of thinking. [00:53:00] Can make you locked into this other dogmatic thing. I, and I don’t like, I’m very conscious with, of like the kind of thinking I’m having and w like why I would lock myself into something else. Like I.
Anyway, I probably need to think about this more just to even articulate what I’m trying to say, but No, the
Zach: thinking, it makes complete sense. Yeah. It’s, you’re, you’re s sc you, you remain skeptical even of your own, because you know how those narratives can go astray, so you question Yeah. Like people, any, any, anytime you find yourself going down those paths, you question
Calvin: it.
Yeah. Or somebody speaking to me and say, in talking about something that to them is like, so true and so dogmatic. And I say, I see what you’re saying, but. Look at the thinking that’s required to believe that. And if I had that thinking to believe this, then I honestly would still be in my religion because this thinking is required to, to believe something What you’re saying, um, ’cause you’re basing it on just that, [00:54:00] this tradition or what somebody said Trust it.
Yeah. That, that no wonder people are, are in this. So like, I’m always like checking. Those types of the way, my thinking is around anything that comes across my awareness, especially if, like, if something sounds completely absolute, like alarm bells go off in my head, um, when somebody’s like, oh, this is completely
Zach: true no matter what.
Calvin: Right.
Zach: You know? Well, I think it’s, yeah, it’s. To me, a sure sign of someone who’s being unreasonable is, is someone who is, acts certain about something you can’t possibly be certain about. And, and like you say, you, you can, once you start looking for that, you see that all around us where someone’s like, oh yeah, this is gonna happen in the future.
Cryptocurrency is gonna be the next thing. This is gonna be, you know? Totally. It’s, it’s like I can understand. Believing a likelihood of various things, but when, when someone is like, no, this is the way it is, I’m like, um, are you, you might wanna, like you said is like, maybe you should question that thought [00:55:00] process that led you to that.
Exactly.
Calvin: Oh man. That could be a whole other conversation because I remember going to like bitcoin, maxim, uh, Maximus, like, uh, meetings and, and people saying this, this, and this, and I’m like. Yeah, it feels so familiar. And honestly, that’s what I love. I, I love, I genuinely, like, I fucking hated my life for a long time after leaving and I felt jipped by, if there was a higher power or the universe, I’m like, why was I in something so ridiculous?
Couldn’t I just had a, a normal life that parents like fostered my curiosity? Maybe I’d be a little happier and more curious. But the thing I do love is I genuinely love this, this like lens that I see the world now. And, uh, like can, and, and look and see the, the dogma in so many corners of the world and also see the destructive nature of absolutism that is just not gonna help us move forward in so many ways.
Zach: I. I often think that, you know, I, I’ve often said and think that certainty our, [00:56:00] our desire to be certain about things, no matter what it is, is really humanity’s biggest weakness. It’s like we’re so, uh, pressured to be certain because it helps us, uh, fight off the existential meaninglessness and, and fear so that we, you know, we, we have these pressures to be certain about whatever it is, just so we can feel like there’s some meaning there, present that we can.
Clinging to. And I, I think that really is what so much of our, our problems boil down to is that, is that desperation for, for, for certainty.
Calvin: And you can’t grow if you’re like so certain on something. A quote that it helps me all the time is like, you know, a mindful of conclusion has no room for expansion.
Zach: Hmm.
Calvin: Doesn’t mean you have to be so open-minded, as they say, as the quote says that your brains fall out. But be open-minded enough that you, you’re probably wrong because we all are on something. Be open enough that you can expand something you don’t just like full stop every, everything. Don’t just say, oh, this is the way it is, no matter what.
Zach: This has been great, Calvin. Thanks so much for talking openly about all these [00:57:00] things. And do you, do you have anything you want to mention that you’re working on these days?
Calvin: Yeah, yeah. Um, I’m launching a podcast. Um, the exact date is TBD, um, but it’s called cultured. I don’t know if you know this, the play on the word there, but cultured.
Ah, so cult. Yeah, cultured, um, emphasis on that word. But, uh, it’s gonna be a podcast really about, of course. My, my life living in a cult or culture at large or being, or becoming cultured, like trying different things in different cultures, learning from different kinds of people. Because the whole other part of this conversation is, that we haven’t talked about is there also is beautiful truths, I think in humans.
If you see the, the traditions that have carried on, and if you can look at those and see why they, they hold on, like what’s the kernel of beauty underneath it, and so. Um, mm-hmm. I’m into that also. So yeah, uh, you can learn more about that. Um, and also get on the list to being notified when, when it actually launches.
Um, if you go to, uh, cultured [00:58:00] pod.com, so cultured pod.com, um, more information on that and can be notified when it goes
Zach: live. Great. This has been great. Thanks Calvin.
Calvin: Yeah, thank you.
Zach: That was Calvin Wayman. You can find him on Twitter at @calwayman. That’s CAL Cal, and WAYMAN wayman.
This has been the People Who Read People podcast with me, Zach Elwood. You can learn more about it at www.behavior-podcast.com. If you liked this episode, I have a lot of episodes in the library about psychology and mental health that you might like.
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Thanks for listening.