I talk with journalist Ellen Huet, whose new book Empire of Orgasm digs into the strange origins and evolution of Nicole Daedone and OneTaste, and goes into more detail than the Netflix documentary, which was titled Orgasm Inc. We talk about where OneTaste’s orgasmic meditation practices actually came from, how Daedone built a movement around it, and how that movement shifted into something far more high-control and ultimately criminal. Topics discussed include: What counts as coercion when adults voluntarily join a group they can technically leave at any time? Where’s the line between unconventional lifestyle experimentation and exploitation? We talk about Nicole’s appeal, why people found her so compelling, and why charisma often has more to do with the listener than the speaker. And we discuss the paradox that makes groups like this so powerful: people can experience genuine benefits and connection at the very same time that harmful dynamics are unfolding.
The YouTube video contains timestamps with links to specific topics.
A transcript is below.
Episode links:
- YouTube (includes video)
- Spotify
- Apple Podcasts
Resources related to this talk:
- Ellen Huet’s website
- LA Times review of Ellen’s Empire of Orgasm
- Netflix’s documentary on OneTaste: Orgasm, Inc.
TRANSCRIPT
(Transcript is generated by machine and will contain errors.)
Zach: Hi, I’m Zach Elwood and this is the People Who Read People podcast, a podcast about psychology and behavior. That was a snippet from my talk with Ellen Huet about her book that just came out this week: Empire of Orgasm: Sex, Power, and the Downfall of a Wellness Cult. Her book covers the story of One Taste, the organization created by Nicole Daedone that centered on their practice of Orgasmic Meditation. They were a big deal for a while; Nicole was promoted by people like Theo Von, Tim Ferris, and Gwyneth Paltrow. But then they got in trouble: after an FBI investigation, Nicole and her business partner Rachel Cherwitz were recently found guilty of forced labor conspiracy.
As you heard, Ellen’s book starts out with a bang, so to speak — absolutely no pun intended. And I think the book is a great read. Even after watching the Netflix documentary about OneTaste, the book really drew me in; it was very interesting getting more information about how Nicole Daedone got her start; the people and organizations that gave her the inspiration to create a wellness organization centered around sex. It’s a wild ride.
In this talk, I ask Ellen for her thoughts about some psychology-related aspects of Nicole and OneTaste: what Nicole’s personality was like; what helps explain her charisma; what separates more cult- groups from less cult-like groups. Ellen and I also talk about the positive aspects of OneTaste and other alleged cults; what positive teachings are they offering to people that people are responding to?
Also, I want to say that OneTaste, like many alleged cults, does raise tough questions that often come up in such situations: When adults voluntarily join a group and can technically leave at any time, how do we determine what crosses the line into coercion or illegality? How do we distinguish between unconventional lifestyle choices and exploitation—especially when a group’s belief system reframes discomfort, sacrifice, and even humiliation as spiritual growth? It’s easy for us so-called “normal” people to form quick opinions about what’s too far; and what’s unethical, and what’s illegal; but groups like OneTaste can raise some tough-to-answer questions; they can make us question our assumptions about what’s too far. And I think it’s possible to see the toughness of some of those questions even if you also think OneTaste deserved to be dissolved and their leaders punished.
Just a note that this episode is on youtube, and I’ll have quick links in the video description to specific questions and topics in the video.
If you like this episode, learn more about the People Who Read People podcast at behavior-podcast.com. Please hit subscribe on youtube or whatever platform you’re listening on; I’d greatly appreciate it.
Okay here’s the talk with Ellen Huet, author of Empire of Orgasm.
Zach: [00:00:00] [00:01:00] Hi Ellen. Thanks for joining me.
Ellen: Hi. Thanks so much for having me.
Zach: Yeah, so your book, um, I just, I actually just started reading it. A few days ago, and it’s, uh, very interesting, like much more interesting than I thought, thought it would be, because I had seen the, I watched the Netflix documentary a few days before that.
Mm-hmm. And I thought I knew what to expect. But you, you delving into the backstory of how Nicole got to, you know, got to be the person she was and the various groups she was involved in. Yeah. It was really hard. That was a hard to put down [00:02:00] book, honestly. I, so I give, and it, the writing was, yeah. I thought the writing was very good.
So
Ellen: thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Yeah. Um, yeah, of course. For those who have seen Orgasm Inc. On Netflix, you’ll recognize my face in there. I’m kind of like the narrator of, um, the film. But yeah, the book, empire of Orgasm really tries to do a comprehensive story, not just of. Nicole and her backstory and how she came to build one taste, but also the intricacies of everything that happened once the company was up and thriving, and then leading all the way up to, um, current day, which, uh, as we know ends with a federal criminal trial and a conviction for Nicole and her second in command, Rachel.
So it’s, it’s the whole sweep.
Zach: Um, real quick, Ellen, uh, or a note that, uh, is it possible for you to turn your, um, mic, uh, setting up a little bit on your side? Like your, um, it’s just a little low. Oh, like
Ellen: the gain? Um,
Zach: yeah. Or, or like the, the basic fundamental setting Yeah. Gain, I guess. Would,
Ellen: that is
Zach: if’s any sort a great
Ellen: question.
Zach: Um, and it might even be in like your [00:03:00] computer settings, like I know there’s a little, sometimes have the slider
Ellen: if you’re able to hear, there’s a little dial at the bottom, which I wonder if that
Zach: it’s either gain or it’s, uh,
Ellen: does that change anything? Is that better?
Zach: I think that might be better. Yeah.
Ellen: How’s this? Now I’m seeing it’s
Zach: either gain or it’s your headphones. Yeah. Um,
Ellen: um, keep
Zach: talking.
Ellen: What’s it? Yeah, it’s, um, so what’s funny is I changed this little, like thing at the bottom and what it actually seemed to do was turn up the volume on your voice to me, but if it’s also helping with the gain
Zach: Oh, I’m not sure if it is.
I, I, I think it might not be, but Okay. Actually, if it’s hard to figure out, it’s not a big deal. ’cause I think it’s, it’s, it’s decent audio. It’s, uh, I can just boost it in post, so it’s not a big deal, but, uh
Ellen: Okay, great.
Zach: If you don’t see an obvious way to adjust it, it’s cool.
Ellen: Um, I gotta say I don’t, but yeah.
Zach: Okay. Cool. We’ll, we’ll keep going.
Ellen: Cool. I’ll
Zach: try to
Ellen: project
Zach: Oh yeah, that’s, that’s cool. I think it’s fine. Yeah. Uh, so I’ll, I’ll start off with the second question. Uh, sure. Where I was gonna keep going there. Um, one second. Lemme just try to remember what I [00:04:00] was talking about. Uh, yeah, the, uh, we were talking about the, yeah.
The, how it got started. Yeah. That was the, uh, watching the documentary, that was the big question that I had, was. You know, where did Nicole come from and what about her backstory was, was true? And, uh, yeah, maybe you could talk a little bit about the, I think, I think that would interest people a lot the, the groups that she was involved in that led up to her learning these, these techniques or getting the ideas for these, these techniques.
And maybe you could, uh, it, it wasn’t clear to me too did she, did she act as if that her ideas were her own and that she hadn’t gotten these ideas from these previous groups? That wasn’t, that part wasn’t clear to me either.
Ellen: Yeah. So, you know, just as a, as a basic overview, you know, Nicole Deone is the founder and creator of, of OneTaste, which was this wellness company that popularized a practice called [00:05:00] Orgasmic Meditation, which is a 15 minute partnered clitoral stroking mindfulness practice.
And it’s true that she learned a very similar clitoral stroking. Meditative practice from two other groups that preceded one taste. I don’t think she would’ve ever outright denied that she got inspiration from these other groups. But of course, for a lot of people who ended up joining One taste or learning about orgasmic meditation, they, they really didn’t know that she had actually studied this somewhere else.
She would often tell this origin story that she went to a party, met a Buddhist monk, and that this monk offered to show her a sexuality practice, which was this stroking practice. And she was then so inspired by the experience that she decided she felt a calling to bring orgasmic meditation to the world.
So what happened in actuality is, um, something kind of similar to that, like she did. Meet a man. Um, he had been a student at one or maybe both of these [00:06:00] predecessor groups. Um, one of them is called Morehouse or More University, which was started in the late sixties in the East Bay, so near San Francisco, but still maybe like an hour away.
And then there was a spinoff group from that called the Welcomed Consensus that also was sort of based in San Francisco, but also had a compound, uh, up north in California near the Oregon border, where they also studied more intensely. And both of these groups called their clitoral stroking practice, deliberate orgasm, and it was a little bit more freewheeling than orgasmic meditation.
So one of the most important things Nicole did, I think she was very savvy for it, was she learned in this practice, decided she wanted to start her own group and her own business, most importantly, in which she was the leader and the, the founder of this and, um, decided to rebrand it. First by calling it orgasmic meditation, uh, which, you know, kind of makes it seem a little bit more like a spiritual practice.
And also with this very convenient acronym, OM or om, which of course [00:07:00] evokes, you know, kind of like an ancient, ancient tradition. And then she also put in these rules and boundaries around the practice, such as it’s 15 minutes. Exactly. Um, you know, people are gonna stay as clothed as possible while doing it.
The man is fully clothed, the woman is only naked from the waist down. Um, people are gonna use gloves and lube, and there’s gonna be all these sort of, um, prescriptions about how the practice is done in an attempt to make it feel as safe and palatable as possible to the average person. So she really was focused on, you know, she took this inspiration from somewhere else and then decided to make it as clean, kind of squeaky clean as possible with her as the leader.
Zach: Mm-hmm. Another interesting detail, uh, that the person who taught her that, that she met, who. The, uh, who I think she kind of referred to sometimes as a Buddhist monk in her telling, uh, I saw that he also has like a, he’s also some sort of, uh, relationship and, uh, sexual coach of some sort
Ellen: of Yes, that’s right.
Yeah. His name is Erwan Davon and he [00:08:00] and his now wife run a sort of sexuality workshop business. Um, and yeah, he had been, so he’s, yeah, he’s still in the business. He was involved with Nicole both, um, as a romantic partner. That’s what I’ve been told. Romantic partner as well as like business partner, um, for a short period of time.
And then they had kind of a split. He went off and did his own thing. But he is apparently, you know, according to my reporting, he is the person who was mm-hmm. Originally introduced Nicole to this practice.
Zach: Yeah. The, um, yeah, it was real, uh, really, really interesting reading about where she came from and got these ideas when I was thinking about how to.
What kind of questions to ask for this talk? I was thinking about focusing on, like, as you say in your book, you know, there’s, there’s no firm line that separates, like a cult from a non cult. It’s a, it’s a spectrum and, you know mm-hmm. Some things are more culty than others. But when I was thinking about, you know, what would make, what, what are the traits that makes, [00:09:00] uh, that would make one taste be seen as a cult?
You know, one of the things is I think that, that cult leaders often have in common, or like faux gurus, they, they try to present ideas as if the ideas are very unique to them, and they’re the source of the, the wisdom. As opposed to saying, you know, if somebody was gonna do a more, uh, you know, open and transparent, uh, attempt to communicate whatever ideas you would say, like, oh, here are the where, where, here’s where I got the ideas from and, uh, here’s, here’s the backstory of where they came from and where I accumulated these ideas as opposed to, as opposed to.
The inclination to be like, I’m the source of all of these things. Mm-hmm. And I am the person that put these together. And I think you see for Nicole, and for a lot of people that might be called more culty, you can see them trying to act as if they have all of the, the wisdom themselves that you have to, to come to, uh, for, for, for the wisdom.
I’m curious if you would you agree that’s one aspect that is a little bit more
Ellen: I [00:10:00] definitely agree that, yeah, that is a char, you know, of course, different cult experts have, have compiled their own lists of what they think make, um, you know, are the characteristics of a cult or a high demand group. Um, it’s true that one of them is the classic, the charismatic leader who promises to have found some special or divine knowledge that gives them access to enlightenment, broadly defined, that then their followers can get access to through them and through following their, their, their work.
And I would say Nicole, you know, she would often make a show of. Picking bits and pieces of wisdom from different, uh, traditions like Kabbalah or Theosophy or Christianity or, or these kinds of things, um, Buddhism frequently. And, um, you know, I think she did, she did at least like, make gestures at this idea that she was pulling from different traditions.
But what she also did, um, was position herself as, you know, uniquely gifted and able to [00:11:00] access, um, this orgasmic energy that one taste was all focused on. So within one taste, they actually redefined the word orgasm to no longer mean the moment of climax, but rather orgasm with a capital. O means this kind of catchall spiritual energy.
Um, I’ve heard people, you know, former one taste members compare it to almost the force from Star Wars or this idea of Qi or this, this kind of life energy, erotic life energy that runs within you. And. You know, through certain, uh, you know, basically Nicole positioned herself implicitly and explicitly as someone who was especially tapped into that source of energy.
And I think that is what people, that is a way in which she mimicked that criterion in which the leader presents himself as having special or divine knowledge.
Zach: Yeah, it’s like the, I mean, some of it’s, some of mentioning the other various religions and spiritualities is kind of like an, an appeal to authority where it’s like I’m tapped into [00:12:00] all these things that all of these various other things are related to.
Uh, but the, you, maybe that’s a good segue into the, what you start your book out with, which is probably like one of the stranger, you know, um, kind of situations where it starts out with her genitals being stroked in front of a room full of, you know, people that she invited, including theoretical investors and such.
And there was, there’s also, you know, so she’s doing that up there in front of the room and. They’re inviting people to talk about their feelings when she is doing that, and
Ellen: mm-hmm.
Zach: They invite people up to touch her as if she’s radiating some special energy. So that, I mean, that, that scene in the, in the documentary, which was my first exposure to this story, when that ca when that scene came up, I was like, whoa, this is a lot more weird than I, than I thought it would be.
Yeah. Because there’s something very narcissistic about, to me about doing this in front of people. Like I can imagine a more, like, if I imagined a more, um, you know, [00:13:00] spiritual aspect to such a group, it wouldn’t, it wouldn’t involve doing this in, in front of people and like, you know, this, this kind of performance.
Uh, and that to me, like stood out as one of the strange things to about it, where it’s like, it’s one thing to do these things and believe it’s worthwhile. It’s another thing to do them in front of people and for, you know, to put on some, basically a show. And I’m curious what you think of that like. That, that to me really communicated like an element of narcissism that she, and especially her doing it for, like bringing people to, to showcase how amazing this was.
It, it, it struck me as quite, uh, exhibitionist, I guess.
Ellen: Hmm. Well, personally, I’ll be careful about using the word narcissist. Like, you know, I’m, I’m not a psychologist, so I’ll, I’ll stay away from that. But I do think, you know, yes, this scene of the demonstration where Nicole is being stroked, um, in front of this kind of VIP crowd, in this beautiful home instance in beach, like this is how the [00:14:00] book opens.
And the reason I chose that is because I think it is one of the most striking images that you can remember about how one taste was operating. And I, I would look at it slightly differently. I think when they do a demo like that, what they’re trying to convey is a few things. First of all, that, like I mentioned earlier, that Nicole does have.
Access to this special power. Like that to me is the unspoken part of why they would bring people up one by one to touch her leg while she’s being stroked. It’s because this idea that like she’s channeling some powerful erotic life force and like, this is how you’re gonna get close to it and witness it.
Um, I think my sense is of course, from an outside perspective, it, it might look totally bananas. Like, like, like if you were not in the realm of thinking about orgasmic meditation and, and all this stuff, you might look at the scene and think like, this is crazy. But [00:15:00] my sense from talking to people who were there from watching videos of this, from talking to people who were really enmeshed in that world is that it felt almost reverent.
This idea that something happening, whatever was happening in that room was very serious and, and very powerful. Um, and so I think, you know, it, it was something. Something really special. And that, that is also what I wanted to con convey that kind of, um, tension between how the outside world would view it as, as opposed to someone who was really enmeshed in that world.
Mm-hmm. Um, and yeah, I think, you know, they believed so strongly in the power of capital O orgasm that they were like, this is the way to show people. And then there’s one more wrinkle to it, which is that, you know, in the book we get into some of the mentorship relationships that Nicole had with, with previous, um, people who had previously led other orgasm focused communities.
One of them is this man named Ray Veder Linein. And what’s so interesting [00:16:00] is in my reporting, I found this document that kinda collects some of the lessons that he tried to show Nicole. And one of them talks about how much of a showstopper it is to have a live demonstration of orgasm. And she’s following that playbook, you know, like, it, it is also a piece of practical advice that she got.
From people who had been in similar positions before, which is that this kind of demonstration blows people away. And so they would consistently, you know, one taste would consistently do live demonstrations of a woman being stroked, you know, receiving some sort of stroking, similar to orgasmic meditation.
They would do that in their introductory classes. They would do that at special events. Um, you know, in 2013 and 2014 when One Taste hosted these enormous orgasm conferences in San Francisco, um, by that point Nicole was more of the stroker rather than the Strokey. But, you know, at the Regency Center, which is this big event space in San Francisco in 2013, they did a big om demonstration on stage.
You know, hundreds of people watching [00:17:00] Nicole stroke, one of her associates. And, uh, I think they know that it’s a powerful experience. And so you see this scene come up again and again throughout the book because it’s.
Zach: Yeah.
Ellen: So shocking. Yeah.
Zach: Yeah. It’s like, it’s a shocking thing. And there, it’s almost like a power move in, in the sense that it’s so, so shocking and to do it so confidently, it kind of messes with people’s minds, right?
Because you’re like, who would do this? And what are they, what, what are they doing and what do they know? You know,
Ellen: they must know something that they,
Zach: that
Ellen: I don’t know. Yeah.
Zach: You might start thinking of that, like, and, and, and just the pure confidence of it, you know, the, uh, it, it, it would blow some people away.
They’d be very affected by that. So I can see how it would be a very affecting, you know, in one way or another, uh, performance.
Ellen: Mm-hmm.
Zach: Uh, yeah. I’m curious too about the, um, when it comes to what One taste and Nicole got in trouble for, my understanding is that it was pretty much solely about the financial exploitation.
Am I, am I right in that? Like if it, my, my rough understanding is if it wasn’t for the [00:18:00] financial exploitation, they, they would be fine right now. Is that accurate?
Ellen: I don’t think that’s accurate. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, if you’re talking specifically about the. Criminal case. Mm-hmm. Then, um, I’ll try to, I’ll try to not get too caught in the weeds, but basically the, in 2023, federal prosecutors charged Nicole and her second in command Rachel Hurwitz with forced labor conspiracy.
That is a federal crime. Um, the short version of the explanation is that, uh, hold on just a second. The short version of the explanation is that conspiracy means more than one person, um, scheming together to commit a crime. And then forced labor has somewhat complicated meaning, but it basically means like obtaining someone’s labor through unlawful means, which might look something like, um, threats of harm or serious harm.
Um, serious harm can be defined as psychological, physical, financial, reputational, [00:19:00] you know, it’s, it’s, it’s quite broadly defined. So in the trial, what they showed, yes, it did include. Prosecutors alleging that Nicole and Rachel had schemed to, um, get their workers to work for low or no pay. But it also included, um, to be clear, it also included the allegations that they had used serious harm in order to do so, and things that fell under serious harm included, like psychological manipulation, um, instances of sexual abuse instances in, in, in which they tried to like, um, get yeah, pressure people to do certain acts, some of which were sexual, some of which were not.
So it’s a little complicated, but mm-hmm. I think suffice to say that the prosecutors alleged that there was both financial harm as well as sexual and other non-financial harm, kind of the whole range. Um, and that they presented that as like enough evidence to charge them with forced labor conspiracy.
Zach: I guess I’m curious though.
It just was really [00:20:00] surprising to me that. Uh, that they would, considering that they seem to be making good amount of money, like what, you know, and, and considering that if they had paid their workers better, that would’ve probably undercut a lot of the charges against them and, you know, treated their, their workers more fairly.
I’m just kind of curious, you know, is it surprising to you that if were, or were maybe, maybe my question is, were they doing as financially well as it seemed, or was it, you know, could they have easily paid their workers more? Is that your understanding?
Ellen: It’s complicated. In the early years of one taste, they were not doing so well financially, and this is actually a key part of what ended up coming at the trial.
But basically in the early years of OneTaste, so this is, you know, the mid two thousands into the like early 2010s, OneTaste was bringing in some money. Their main revenue source was selling courses and intensive workshops to students who wanted to learn both. Orgasmic [00:21:00] meditation and kinda the, the Ohm Life philosophy.
But they were often in the red. You know, they were not, um, they were not turning a profit. They were losing money each month. And the way that they managed to support themselves was by getting financial support and loans, essentially from a man named Reese Jones, who was a venture capitalist in San Francisco, um, who was also Nicole’s boyfriend.
Like he met her through one taste and became her boyfriend. And he had enough money, you know, he had sold a company to Motorola several years in previous for something like $200 million. And so he had some money and he was happy to. Lend money to one taste. Um, this was all discussed in great detail at the trial and also something that’s supported by all of the reporting that I’ve done so far is he would give money to one taste And in exchange he received sexual favors from one taste employees.
So that often looked like [00:22:00] birthday scenes that he received, um, around the time of his birthday or throughout the year where OneTaste employees would put on these elaborate scenes sometimes with BDSM elements or theatrical elements in which, um, they would all come together and kind of do like a performance, like an immersive theater performance for Mr.
Jones. And that did sometimes involve sex. And then, um, he also had a string of handlers, so a series of women who were involved in one taste, who spent various amounts of time, um, being his sort of sexual. Assistant
Zach: liaison. Yeah.
Ellen: Yes. Um, so at times they would live with him in his house. Um, and there are women who testified about being asked to take on this role and being asked to service him sexually every day as part of that role.
They also did housework and would like walk his dog and things like that. Um, and what’s complicated about this is that [00:23:00] it was also seen as a position of honor to be asked to take this role. At least that is what women who had served in this role told me when I interviewed them. And so you can imagine how this is complicated, right?
Like if you are really emotionally all in into the mission of one taste and their mission was to spread orgasmic meditation and spread orgasm to the world, um, then you might be, you might feel like, okay, it’s part of my job to sexually service the investor of this company that is helping keep us afloat.
Correct. Um, and that is often, uh, that to my understanding, again, based on my reporting, that’s my understanding of, of, of what went on. So it was a very complicated situation. Later on, they did actually end up paying back their loans to this man, and then they turned instead to selling more and more courses, um, and more and more expensive courses, sometimes tens of thousands of dollars to their customers in order to keep the business afloat.
Um, they did end up bringing in over the years, you know, tens of millions of dollars in [00:24:00] revenue. But based on my reporting, they were not always, you know, they were often spending a lot on operational expenses. So your main question of like, you know, were they making tons of profit? I think based on my reporting, actually no.
I mean, they were keeping the business afloat. They were profitable starting from around 2013 and onward. Um, but the truth is yes, many people testified and many people told me in my interviews that they were not paid that much for their work. That they were often were expected or socially pressured to.
Give their labor for free
Zach: mm-hmm.
Ellen: As part of the mission.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Ellen: And so, um, yeah, it’s not clear to me that they could have just paid people more and fixed this problem makes more,
Zach: it makes it make more sense, I think because yeah, the, that was my initial thought was like, Hey, you could have avoided a lot of trouble probably by just treating people better.
But I think, yeah, it’s not
Ellen: quite that simple. Yeah.
Zach: Yeah. Not quite that. And yeah, there’s incentives to, yeah. That they had obvious incentives to, uh, cut corners in that regard. Yeah. [00:25:00]
Ellen: And look, it’s not, it’s not so different from any startup that was also happening in San Francisco at the time. Of course, there’s some things that were different, but, you know, a lot of startups are struggling to become profitable.
They, you know, they’re trying to
Zach: mm-hmm.
Ellen: Just show growth. Um, and, and that’s what I found so interesting about one taste in the context of San Francisco in the, in the 2010s is like. Of course they were different from a lot of other startups, but there’s also some similarities. It’s like they were really trying to get by.
Mm-hmm. And you know, in my day job at Bloomberg News, I, I covered startups, I covered tech. Like this is very much, that’s my bread and butter. And so like, I loved seeing how this company was the overlap. Yeah. In many ways it was different, but in a lot of ways it, it was actually just kind of like another startup were very, a bit of a strange one were Yeah.
Zach: Sexual entrepreneurs. They, they had a, you know, a new sexual product were basically Yeah. Or sexual slash spiritual or, you know, whatever. Yeah.
Ellen: Wellness, sexual wellness, you know.
Zach: Yeah. Yeah. Um, the, the other thing that, uh, strikes me as, [00:26:00] you know, being on the, on the more cult-like spectrum is, you know, when you’ve got, uh, and I’m sure you know, cult, uh, experts talk about this too, uh, but the idea that, uh, you know, leaders, uh, groups.
Will say, oh, our, our system, our, our set of beliefs is kind of a cure all for any problem you have. Right. And you had in the, in the documentary, and I’m sure in your book, I didn’t finish your book, but, uh, I, I, I saw people, um, I, I’d learned that people would say, like, if they were having problems in the group, uh, depression, anxiety, whatever problems they would be told like, oh, you’re not oming enough.
You just need to own more. You know, and I, I think that’s a, that’s kind of a, a common red flag where the group’s, uh, practices are, are treated as if like, well, you just need to do our practices more. Mm-hmm. That, that’ll solve every problem you have.
Ellen: Yeah, absolutely. A, a and a, a common, I think one of the ways one cult expert framed it is, yeah, it’s like an overarching belief [00:27:00] system.
So this idea that, like this practice orgasmic meditation, which they say will help you tap into, again, your capital O orgasm, your erotic energy, you know, within one taste. I heard. From, you know, both from their own promotional materials as well as from people who spoke to me about their experience. I heard a range of claims, you know, not just the basics, like, oh, it’ll help you improve your sex life and your relationships, give you more intimacy and connection in your life, but also help you tap into your desire.
It’ll give you more physical energy. Like often, you know, there were many former members who told me, you know, they worked such, um, long hours, you know, often from like seven in the morning to like midnight and it’s like running events and stuff for one taste that they often felt sleep deprived, but they were told, Hey, like you should be Ming more.
That’s how you’re gonna get more energy, that this practice is an energy source. Um, and at various points on one Tastes website, they had testimonials where people were saying things like, one taste secured my depression, one taste helped manage my Crohn’s disease. One [00:28:00] taste helped me find God, one taste helped me.
You know, it, it was like it again, similar to maybe some of these other wellness cures, you’re totally right. It, it was positioned as like. The answer to a wide range of things. Um, and you’re totally correct that, uh, that is usually something that should raise, um, suspicions or, or concerns for, for people.
Zach: Right? Yeah. Um, sorry, one second. Lemme look at my notes here.
Ellen: Take your time.
Zach: Oh, do you know, um, I, I was curious, do you know the relationship between what Nicole and the people she learned such things from these, these various, you know, long, uh, genital stroking practices? Mm-hmm.
Ellen: What,
Zach: what is the relationship between those and just tantric sex as a, as a practice? Do you know the relationship there?
Ellen: Yeah, I’ll be, I’m just gonna give a lot of caveats here, which is that tantra is [00:29:00] a very, like, complex and um, uh, just like a very complex world that I just know enough to know that I don’t know it well enough to, to say. Um, and, and, and that in fact, a lot of what my, my understanding is a lot of what people think of as tantra might actually be more accurately described as neo toran, I think within the wor mm-hmm.
There’s a lot of people who, um, would like to make that distinction. In general.
Zach: There’s a lot of complexity, just
Ellen: like, yeah, I would say
Zach: just like Buddhism or any kind
of
Ellen: totally, so
Zach: large school, there’s all these,
Ellen: understandably, and I think that, you know, people who are experts in tantra might feel like that’s a reductive.
So I’m gonna, I’m gonna say I’m sure there are similar, um, principles, but I don’t know them specifically well enough to say. But it is true that like one taste, you know, orgasmic meditation, some of the. Some of the things that are interesting about orgasmic meditation are that the practice is meant to be goalless.
So within those 15 minutes of stroking, the only goal is for both the stroker and the [00:30:00] strokey to feel the sensations in their body. You’re not trying to get anywhere. There is no particular like outcome that you are trying to be held to. And I think that for a lot of people, that’s the first time they’ve ever experienced sexual touch with another person, where there wasn’t this unspoken sense of, I need to perform, I need to get to this place.
I need to make sure that he feels good too. So for a lot of people, you know, I don’t wanna undersell the fact that I think the experience of orgasmic meditation was, um, revelatory for a lot of people who experienced it the first time. For, for women who might have struggled to have, um, climax, which by some studies is 10 to 15% of American women, for men who might feel performance anxiety about certain things during sex, feeling unsure about how to pleasure a woman.
All these things like. I think a reason that orgasmic meditation was so appealing is because those are things that people are worried about or have stress about or, or, or want to find a different way to connect where they don’t need to be concerned about that.
Zach: Right.
Ellen: But it’s hard to [00:31:00] talk about. So when, when this, when this solution comes where they offer like, Hey, here’s this 15 minute thing.
You can do it with a partner, but you could also do it with anyone. And when it’s over, you don’t owe the guy anything. You don’t owe him a handshake, a hug, your phone number, whatever.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Ellen: Um, it’s
Zach: empowering and
Ellen: extremely empowering might
Zach: help you deal with some issues and Yeah, a
Ellen: hundred percent. And so in, in that sense, in the sense that it is sexual connection, but with a more mindful and just like a different approach to it, um, I think for a lot of people, yeah, they, they, they might, it just might open doors in their mind where they think like, wow, I could experience something like this.
I didn’t know that that was possible.
Zach: Yeah. I think you’re, you’re getting at something that’s hard to talk about where. So I, once I worked for an NLP trainer for mm-hmm. Like six months, I was never into it, but I took it mainly because I thought it’d be make for some interesting stories. And so I went down the NLP, you know, rabbit hole of learning about what these people were doing.
And, and I’ve talked about it from my podcast where there’s a [00:32:00] lot of exploitative, manipulative, just playing bullshit stuff and even dangerous stuff. But, you know, there, there are elements to it that make sense for why people have positive experiences. And I’ve talked about that on my podcast, where it’s like, you can see how specific people are using it in exploitative and manipulative ways, while also seeing what it is that is helping people with various things and why they do report having, you know, very positive experiences and why they keep coming back and maybe even get exploited financially by these people.
You know? So it’s like you, you can see both. It’s possible to see both sides of, of that coin, that there can be good things in the mix that help people while, yeah,
Ellen: I would go so far as to say that every. Every semis, successsful cult has a lesson at the center of it that’s extremely valuable. Mm-hmm. Good.
Otherwise
Zach: that’s
Ellen: good. Yeah. Why would anyone join? Like it? That’s good point. You know, you probably would never get off the ground. And so, you know, again, I’ll be careful about like labeling anything as [00:33:00] cult or not cult as we talk about in the book. I think they exist on a spectrum. Mm-hmm. But one taste is, is no exception to this.
I think one taste, of course, so many people have told me about harmful experiences that they had in and around the group. And I spoke to many people who were like, it really changed my sex life. It really lit up my relationships. It, it taught me things about myself that I had never understood before. I believe all of these things.
Mm-hmm.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Ellen: And you know, the structure of orgasmic meditation, I can see, and I’ve seen many examples and been told many times about how it was, um, you know, how it was abused, but the structure of orgasmic meditation, there’s a lot of wisdom in there. And that’s why people, you know, it’s, it’s not rocket science.
It’s like that’s why people were drawn to it because it was offering something that they couldn’t find somewhere else.
Zach: Right. You can imagine a, a healthier, uh, you know, less, less high control environment than, you know, one taste had. You can, you can imagine a different version of it. At least I can that had [00:34:00] different properties.
Yeah. Would, would, would have much fewer people reporting that they were, you know, manipulated and, and coerced and such. Yeah.
Ellen: Yeah. What’s interesting is just orgasmic meditation has up until now not really had a life separate from one taste. Mm-hmm. And so there are former one taste members who have expressed to me this sadness that the practice never really got a chance to maybe be its own thing, separate from this group that where, you know, where they might attribute more, you know, these former members might attribute more harm to the dynamics of the group and less to the practice, but.
For all intents and purposes, because those two were so intertwined, it’s, it’s hard to separate them.
Zach: Yeah. There’s gonna be a branding issue for, um, yeah. For anybody that attempts to follow in the footsteps, um, is, I was curious when you, uh, when you first started writing your article, uh, were you surprised, surprised that, uh, when you, when the [00:35:00] article came out and you finished it, were you surprised that there hadn’t been coverage, negative coverage of the group before that?
Ellen: Yes and no. You know, there had been a lot of coverage of OneTaste. In the past, you know, they, they were actually quite, uh, you know, of course it’s kind of a fringe practice, so it’s, it’s always been a little bit, um, on, on the edges, but it was fairly mainstream. You know, Nicole spoke on stage at a Gwyneth Paltrow Goup Health Conference in 2017.
The practice was basically endorsed by Gwyneth Paltrow. There was a whole chapter on it in Tim Ferriss’s book, the Four Hour Body, even Klo Kardashian talked about how she thinks orgasmic meditation is great. And, um,
Zach: yeah, she went a lot of, she was on a lot of pretty big shows about it and, you know, Theon and all these kind of shows.
Ellen: Yeah. Theo Von has studied orgasmic meditation. That’s my favorite one. Um, favorite. He’s so funny of when he talks about it. He got bit by a dog or something when he went over to Strokes, um, someone at her house. Um, anyway, and [00:36:00]
Zach: Okay.
Ellen: You know, orgasmic meditation was discussed on the Today Show. Like again, it was, you know, um.
You know, and I think Maria Shriver was the, the person who had reported on that. So it, it is just like, it had reached pretty famous people. It had gotten a lot of mainstream coverage. Um, and, and the coverage about it had generally been, you know, every once in a while the stories would mention like, oh, maybe there are some weird things that happen here.
But it was never the focus of a story. And in general, people I think somewhat understandably were just interested in like, what is orgasmic meditation?
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Ellen: What are the benefits? How does it work? Like where did it come from? Mm-hmm. There are so many interesting and worthy questions to ask about it that I’m not actually surprised that people didn’t get further and ask like, well, what actually happens inside the company?
Um
Zach: mm-hmm.
Ellen: And the only reason that I ended up writing about them is because, you know, one taste actually reached out to me. To try to pitch me on a story about them. This was back in 2017 again, I was covering startups at the time. They were like, this is a fast-growing [00:37:00] woman-led wellness startup. And I decided to po I had heard about them before I decided to like poke around a little and ended up finding someone who had, had a pretty bad experience with one taste.
And that was the first that I had really heard of this. After talking to that, that person, I was like, okay, I gotta find out more. Found other people, heard their experiences, and it just kind of snowballed from there. But I think I also could have easily just ended up writing kind of a, a story that didn’t touch on that.
You know, it, I think as a reporter, you, you just sometimes happen to ask the right questions and, and, and end up somewhere that you didn’t expect.
Zach: Yeah. And I, I do kind of wonder if I feel like some of the, some of the shady people out there that, uh, specifically like this. Con artists that I talk about on my podcast, chase Hughes.
He gets, he’s been on Joe Rogan and he’s been on these various big shows. Uh, these people don’t seem to be interested in vetting the fact that this [00:38:00] guy has told so many lies about his career, his experiences, what he’s done, that the grandiose claims he makes, that nobody, you know, nobody who’s an expert on psychology behavior, behavior believes are possible like brainwashing and mind controlling people.
But it strikes me that for show hosts, there can be an element of like, this is an exciting thing that will get clicks. Um, I, I want to showcase something that will get clicks for me and get attention. It’s an, it’s an interesting idea. Like regardless of, even if they believe it or not, there can be kind of a pressure to, you know, talk about something that’s pretty edgy.
And I do kind of wonder if that might have played a role in, in her getting so much. Attention these days where it’s like everyone’s competing for attention. It’s like, oh, I’ll have on this, you know, I’ll talk about or have on this person who’s doing this really strange, uh, sexual, you know, meditation practice because I know it’s gonna get clicks.
Like, whether, whether I’m into it or not. It, you know, it, it’s gonna get some attention, right. So [00:39:00] I ju I just wonder if that’s a factor.
Ellen: I think of course one taste in orgasmic meditation got attention for many years because it was such an unusual premise. Um, you know, as a journalist, I think I, I feel a lot of, uh, understanding for someone who.
For, you know, doesn’t have the time or bandwidth to be able to look into every, in, you know, to investigate every person that they have on their show. Like, I also
Zach: recognized that, and there wasn’t, there was no journalism e even out there was, there weren’t, there weren’t articles like yours out there. Yeah.
You have to
Ellen: even
Zach: investigate. Yeah.
Ellen: You know, to be, to be totally fair, it’s like,
Zach: yeah,
Ellen: it took me many, many months to write that first story. Right? Totally. I probably worked on it, it for six months and not everyone has that time and energy. Like, I’m very grateful to my editors, um, at Bloomberg News who were like, sure, you think there’s a story here?
Like, go for it. Um, you can spend time researching it. Like, unless you’re in a situation that can support that kind [00:40:00] of work. I never begrudge someone for not having, you know Yeah. Turned over every rock. That stuff takes time and like Yeah. You know, any investigative journalist can tell you that, like mm-hmm.
That is why hard, you know, like. This, that is why investigative journalism is so expensive. It it, it really is. And I think, you know, we don’t need to get into a soapbox about that, but like, if people want to have that kind of reporting in the world, they need to understand that it takes time, energy, money, and resources.
Zach: There’s a real lack of it these days. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It’s hard. It’s expensive and Yeah. Takes, takes time. And it’s important. Uh, yeah. I was curious, uh, I mean, one thing that stood out to me watching the documentary was, uh, you know, I’m not, as you say I’m not a psychologist either, but talking about Nicole’s backstory, when she was talking about her father who’d been convicted multiple times of, uh, child sexual abuse, she was saying something like, uh, you know, she viewed him at some [00:41:00] point in her life when she was younger, viewed him even knowing he’d done those things.
She viewed him as someone who was sort of. Uh, such a special person that the normal rules didn’t apply to him. So she was like coming up with a, a narrative where like, he wasn’t, he wasn’t just a disgusting, uh, you know, sexual abuser. He was just such an interesting person that, that the normal rules couldn’t apply to him.
That, that he transcended these normal rules. And I, I kind of get an inkling of like how she might, you know, you might be able to apply those same kind of ideas to yourself, you know, if you, uh, if you view yourself as like not a, not, not governed by the usual rules that you’re in possession of, you know, such, such great wisdom that you’re such a special person, you know, in, in, in these typical kind of narcissistic ways you can start, you could make similar excuses for yourself.
And I, I just thought that was an interesting insight into how she was, she seemed like, uh, and also you write about how she, you know, her, part [00:42:00] of her healing from her. Uh, sexual abuse from her, from her father Wa was her saying like, oh, she, she had instigated the sexual abuse. Yeah. She took responsibility for it also.
So that was another interesting element where she was, she was clearly kind of grappling with these, these ideas, um, that seemed to have a lot of influence into how she, how, how, how her philosophy and, and, uh, personality turned out. But I, you know, not to get too, uh, as you, as you said about yourself, I’m not a psychologist either, but I, I found that those, those various things very meaningful about her past, you know, a
Ellen: hundred percent.
I mean, I, I, I think I’ll, I’ll caveat all of this by saying like, this is, of course, I, I think this is maybe the, one of the most sensitive parts of the book was the part where I really wanted to try to get a better understanding of what was Nicole’s relationship to her father, who, as you said, yes, convicted of child sexual abuse.
Um. Uh, once and then was actually, [00:43:00] uh, charged and arrested for it a, a second time, and actually died in custody, uh, pretty soon after that. So he, I wanted to understand what was her relationship with her father, what exactly, I mean, you can never really know, but trying to get more answers about what, what happened between the two of them, and then how had that experience shaped everything in her life that came after, which, you know, she has spoken about in various ways.
Sometimes the story has shifted over the years. I wanted to do my own reporting, and I think the truth is it’s like this is extremely complicated, extremely sensitive territory, and I really tried to treat it with care and responsibility in the book and essentially in other places. Nicole has been very.
Careful about what she said about her father publicly. You know, she has often said that, um, you know, he was convicted of child sexual abuse. She has at various times said that he never behaved inappropriately toward her. Um, she has at times wouldn’t been asked [00:44:00] about the question of what happened between her and her father.
She has side stepped it, um, and of course has, has woven her father’s crimes into her life story regardless of, you know, what happened specifically between them. So she has, you know, the, she has spoken openly about the fact that he’s been convicted of these crimes and that his death kind of sparked her exploration, you know, as she puts it.
She had seen the poisonous side of sexuality through her father’s life and was determined to show that sexuality also had the power to heal in equal measure. And people were often drawn, you know, people who joined one taste were drawn to the fact that she had been so up close with. This, this dark experience.
Um, and, and that they felt, I think, seen by her and, and that that was something that felt reassuring to them. And there were also people I know because they told me, they looked at her and thought, oh, this is someone who has experienced something pretty traumatic potentially. She seems to have figured out her sexuality regardless.
And that’s [00:45:00] inspiring to me. I would like to be like her. Mm-hmm. I would like to do these things that she has said that she’d done because maybe it will make me feel more at peace with my sexual history. A lot of people who had joined one Taste might have experienced trauma or assault in the past, um, or might have just had complicated relationships about sex.
Mm-hmm. So in doing some reporting about her and her relationship to her father, you know, what I found was she had at various times earlier when she was maybe like less in the limelight, told people yes. That she had been, um, sexually abused by her father and also that she told people later on. That she had instigated it, that she had actually wanted it on some level.
And to be clear, the story that she tells is one in which she was very young when this happened, you know, under 10. And if you talk to child sexual abuse experts and researchers, they will say that generally this sometimes happens where [00:46:00] the victims of this type of abuse will in an, in an attempt to feel a sense of agency and control over something really terrible, they will think that it was something that they wanted.
And again, I’m gonna not tread any further because it’s just, it’s really complicated and delicate. But I think understanding that she might have had an, a desire to see her father not as a bad figure, is a really important part of maybe trying to un understand. How she works.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Ellen: And she has, of course, as you said, it’s in the book, it’s in the documentary.
She has talked about her father as being not a bad person, but someone who, I won’t get the quote exactly right, but someone who was like, so expansive that he, he didn’t really mesh well with the arbitrary laws of the third dimension, but instead was like, you know, um, you know, he, she saw him as a fourth dimensional being, and of course the fourth dimension is a place where she [00:47:00] kind of talks about the regular rules of the physical plane, like not applying.
Zach: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Ellen: And of course, what you point out is so true now Nicole is currently in jail in Brooklyn, awaiting sentencing. She could face up to 20 years in prison. She’s been convicted of a very serious federal crime. And it’s really hard not to see the parallel there to, to not see that her father once sat in a very similar spot.
And I think. You know, I just, I think that is just kind of enough to, to point out, um, and, and to see that there has been this pattern that on some level has been repeated. Um, I think mm-hmm. Feels to me like a very complex and poignant aspect of this story.
Zach: Yeah. The, um, ’cause I don’t think, from what I’ve seen, she hasn’t really expressed any regret for things she’s done.
I mean, I think there was even some quote, I can’t remember if it was from [00:48:00] her or Rachel, where it was something like, we’re, we’re gonna be sleeping well in ourselves tonight, unlike the people that put us here who won’t be sleeping well the rest of their life, or something like that. I can’t remember.
That was her, or, yeah,
Ellen: I was total, so that, that was something that comes up actually at the end of a piece in the New Yorker about Nicole and her trial. It is something that, to the best of my recollection, she wrote from. Jail and was then passed on to the reporter who then quoted it at the very end. So for those who are curious, they can go and look at it.
Hmm. That is also how I interpreted the quote. It was a bit, it wasn’t a hundred percent clear to me. And Nicole is a very skilled communicator in the sense that I think she can be, if it’s hard for you to totally understand what she’s saying, I believe that she’s doing that intentionally and that she is like playing with
Zach: Yeah.
Ellen: Your understanding of it. But it is, it is true that I, [00:49:00] to, to my understanding, I don’t think she has made, um, you know, her, her legal team has vowed to appeal, uh, right. The conviction’s.
Zach: She’s not Yeah. She’s not saying she’s sorry for any specific things that I’ve seen. Yeah. Yeah. Um, well, and also they, another, a thing that struck me about her experiences and why she would, you know, it makes sense that with her experiences and her pain, um, from.
Assuming from her father that that happened to her, which seems quite likely, or at least even if he, even if he didn’t do it, it seems like a, probably a, a, a toxic upbringing in some regard. Um, however that happened, um, it seems like her, her dealing with those issues, it, it makes sense that she would be drawn to the power of the sexual empowerment aspects of the, um, you know, the deliberate, uh, orgasm or the orgasmic meditation, whatever you wanna call [00:50:00] it.
It seems like it would make sense to her that she would find a lot of empowerment in those things, or that she would be more prone to find empowerment. And maybe she, you know, she thinks because it’s so powerful to me, it’s gonna be powerful to everybody else. Whereas maybe there’s a function of like, well, there’s specific reasons why it’s so powerful to her.
Right? It’s like, because she had these. These issues she dealt with around sex and, and the, and the potential or probable abuse. And it’s like, there, there are certain people for whom these practices probably are much more empowering or meaningful than, than other people who don’t have those issues. Is, is kind of how that struck me.
Where, you know, it’s, the world’s a complex place. Like what, what works for one, what is meaningful for, for one person isn’t gonna be meaningful for the other other person. They’ll be like, why are you, why are you finding this so, so meaningful? Right. And that’s what struck me about her. It’s like, and, and her experience is describing, [00:51:00] you know, her first experience with that guy she met, who showed her the practice in the early two thousands and was really life changing for her.
Like she was apparently gonna go into the, uh, you know, become a nun or something, and then changed her mind. But it kind of made sense to me that, you know, people that were, that had more issues around that would be more likely to, uh. You know, to find those experiences highly meaningful and, and keep going down the rabbit hole of what they might mean.
Ellen: Yeah. I mean, I think you’re right. And I would also add more to that. Of course, Nicole seems to have had a particular life story that made sexuality be a focus for her, a lens by which she understood herself, a lens by which she understood other people and the, and, and the relationships of people around her.
That being said, part of what I think made one taste so compelling is that sex connection, intimacy. These are things that every human [00:52:00] yearns for on some level. Most everyone, of course, for a complicated species, there’s always exceptions and there are certainly people for whom they’re like, this doesn’t interest me at all.
But I think if, if people are honest with themselves, like, this is a, this is a place in life, like your sexuality is a place in life where. It does tap into a deep part of yourself that you probably have unspoken questions about things that you just feel like, you know, it, it, and, and it’s not just that it’s this deep yearning that many people experience, but also that it’s a place where there aren’t that many places where you can go to get guidance on it.
Like it is not something that people speak about that openly. It can be hard to find a community where people are dedicated to like exploring this or understanding it on some level. So I think you’re right that for various people this like is more or less of a draw,
Zach: especially. Yeah. Yeah.
Ellen: And especially if you’ve had like complex experiences with your sexuality in the past, of course.
Mm-hmm.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Ellen: But I think, you know,
Zach: [00:53:00] there’s
Ellen: a broad
Zach: draw you’re
Ellen: saying. Yeah. One thing observed in, in talking to one taste is I certainly don’t wanna make it seem like. Everyone who joined had some sort of no Yeah. Complex history. In fact, many people were just normal people Yeah. Who like, wanted to improve their, the sex life of their marriage, or like mm-hmm.
Didn’t really understand how to connect with people, um, of the opposite sex and, and, and wanted to improve that, like mm-hmm. You know, you remember for sure at the time in the two thousands, like pickup artistry was really big, but there were a lot of men who like went to that thinking it would help them, and they were like, I don’t like the vibe of this.
And they ended up at one taste instead. Like, people are looking for connection, sex and relationships is one of our core needs. And so, you know, I would argue that like yeah. People, people were drawn to what the promise was. They may have thought that like yeah, they may have experienced the cla the A class or two and been like, it’s not for me.
But I think what they’re promising to fix is something that actually a lot of people are looking for.
Zach: No, totally. Yeah. I, I, I, I agree with that. Yeah. I wasn’t, I wasn’t saying it was not, I, I agree. It’s a broad appeal mm-hmm. [00:54:00] For various different. Reasons. I mean, especially these days when so many people suffer from loneliness and, and Totally.
You know, the modern world can be quite isolating. Yeah. Uh,
Ellen: well, I think, I think that, you know, however you wanna define a cult, cults are, we’re more vulnerable to them now than ever. I
Zach: agree.
Ellen: Because people are lonely. They don’t know how to connect, they don’t, they, you know, they are being socially isolated.
And I think that people sense that that’s not good for them. And, and, and when, uh, you know, one of the things that Colts often promise and can deliver on is a sense of belonging, community purpose. Like when someone has that void in their life, they are more vulnerable to that. And I think, you know, kind of in a, in a COVID era, we, you know, that is, that is something that’s just happening more and more.
Zach: Are you okay for a few more minutes?
Ellen: Sure.
Zach: Okay. I was curious what you thought of about the, uh, charisma of Nicole, because I’m [00:55:00] curious about what people mean by charisma in general. Because so often when people say like, such and such person is charismatic, I’m like, really? Are they like, I, they’re confident.
Sure. And like, but I’m, I’m kind of curious what often, what people mean by charismatic and I’m, I’m curious, do you have thoughts on, you know, uh, Nicole’s power to, uh, draw people in? Do you see it as just a matter of like stating beliefs confidently? We, we, how do you define the, uh, the charisma element and what draws people in there?
Ellen: Definitely, I, I mean, early on in my reporting process, I had an interesting conversation with, um, Dr. Yya Lalich, who is a cult expert, cult researcher, um, who’s written books on this topic. And she told me something that I’ll always remember, which is that she chooses to see charisma not as a quality inherent to the person, but a quality inherent to the relationship between two people.
So car charisma exists between [00:56:00] charisma exists in a relationship. It is not sense in inherently, like in a person, which helps explain why. Of course, there are people out there who look at such and such person and think, my God, that’s the most charismatic man I’ve ever met. Other people look at ’em and like, what are you talking about?
Zach: What do you care? What,
Ellen: what veil, va, you know, the veil has been lifted. They see right through it. Right. And so that framing really helped me understand.
Zach: That makes sense. Yeah.
Ellen: What it means when someone says she’s so charismatic, what they’re saying is she’s charismatic to me. Mm-hmm. And that is often a reflection of.
What am I, you know, in this example where, let’s say I’m saying that about Nicole because I’ve met her, you know, because this is hypothetical. It’s like, you know, I met her, she really charmed me. That kind of thing. What I’m really saying is what she was saying resonates with me. Mm-hmm. What I’m looking for is something that she is offering.
I’m impressed by her, I admire her. You know, it’s like all those things.
Zach: Her
Ellen: way of
Zach: being, even just her, her
Ellen: way of presenting
Zach: herself, something
Ellen: clicked. It’s like, you know, it’s, it’s like art and the artist, right? Like what really exists is the experience between the two.
Zach: [00:57:00] Yeah.
Ellen: Yeah. And certain things that Nicole did really appealed to certain people.
And so in the book there’s all these examples of people who, who met her and that she just seemed to promise something. You know, there’s this woman, Allison, who describes sitting down next to Nicole and, and locking eyes with her and being like, oh my God, who is this person? I’m so drawn to her, I can’t even explain why.
And Nicole seems to be like beaming her this message, which is like Allison had been sort of this like lonely person and Nicole seemed to be making her feel immediately like, if you come with me, like you are not gonna be lonely anymore. Mm-hmm.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Ellen: Um, Nicole would also make these promises to people explicitly and implicitly, which is basically that like, if you come with me, you’re gonna have an exciting life.
Zach: Right?
Ellen: Like the guy that she ended up co-founding One Taste with Rob Kendell, um, you know, people have described this scene to me in which Nicole basically lures Rob and his wife away from the welcome consensus one of these previous groups by promising them like, I’m gonna build this amazing [00:58:00] game and you can like be part of it if you come with me and like, I’m gonna offer you a crazy life.
It’s gonna be wild, it’s gonna be exciting. Mm-hmm. And the thing is, people want that. It’s like
adventure.
Ellen: Yeah. They want adventure. Yeah. People want adventure. People want, you know, even many years later, I talked to someone who, who joined one tasting in part, he, he kind of thought it was maybe a cult, but he was also like, I don’t know, it seems exciting.
Like, I wanna do something like that. I wanna test myself. I wanna see what I, what I discover. So, you know, Nicole would make these certain promises, which is like, you’re gonna, like, you’re gonna have fun with me. You’re gonna like explore stuff, you know, I’m gonna make you feel part of something.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Ellen: Um, but she also just had, you know, she’s also just good.
She’s good with people. She like knows how to charm and, you know, I won’t give away too much about it, but basically at the end of the book, there’s a scene in which I meet Nicole for the first time in person. And of course by this, by this point, I have spent so many. Hours, days, weeks, months, studying her, spoken to people who knew her, spoken to people [00:59:00] who like studied with her and were married to her and like, did drugs with her.
All these things. Watched, you know, many hours of videos of her lecturing. I just felt like I had this understanding of her. But, um, I meet her for the first time in a courthouse in New York, um, because she had shown up for like a kind of a routine hearing, and she immediately spots me and calls out to me and is like, hi, Ellen.
Smiles and Waves comes. I mean, what a move, right? And comes over to me. Mm-hmm. A very short, yeah, very short conversation. And then, you know, I, of course, when the trial happened, it’s like I would see her every day in the, in the courtroom. You know, we weren’t really talking, but, you know, I would watch her and she’s just, she’s just good at this.
She’s very aware of how people see her. She’s really good at knowing. Someone described once to me that sometimes having a conversation with her, she could come to you and immediately. Find that thing about you that is special to you that most other people don’t notice and like immediately see it. It was as if she like walked into your house, took [01:00:00] a look at your living room, and spotted the one thing on your shelf that was actually most special to you.
That like most people never look at and be like, wow, that’s beautiful. And so people, you know, and of course I think she also probably tried that with people and it didn’t land and that it just doesn’t, you know, it doesn’t work. But for those for whom it does land, I think that is kind of how charisma works is it’s almost stronger if it doesn’t work with everyone.
And Nicole would say, you know, she also enjoyed saying kind of provocative things. Um, you know, making kind of like hot takes about, uh, like men and women’s relationships or sexuality and this kind of thing. And sometimes people would be shocked and maybe if they didn’t like it, it would turn them off from her.
But for those for whom it landed, I think it would draw them closer. ’cause they’d be like, oh, she’s willing to say the brave truths that other people, um.
Zach: Right.
Ellen: Aren’t afraid to say, you know, then, then they would look at her and think she’s bold. Um, she’s got, she’s got a vision that connects with me.
Zach: Yeah.
Reading your book, uh, I mean the, the early part of her, [01:01:00] her career and life where learning about the people around her, and it seemed like so much had to do with this excitement aspect, you know, including in the welcomed community where people would describe, you know, the outside world was boring. You, you know, in, in here.
Even if there were some bad things, it was really exciting. You were on the forefront of something that was unlike, you know, things that so many people, the muggles on the outside were experiencing or whatever. And I, and I think that seems to play a role in so many of these kinds of groups where, you know, it’s the excitement that, uh, you do, whether, whether you don’t know where you’re going, but you know, it’s some exciting thing that nobody or hardly anybody else is experiencing.
And that, that alone can make up for a lot, I think.
Ellen: Yeah. And it also keeps people staying longer than they would otherwise. Right. Like, if you believe that if you’re gonna leave this group, your life outside is gonna be unfulfilling, boring, sad, you’re gonna be back with these people who are like asleep.
Mm-hmm. And don’t see the like [01:02:00] magic in the world. You’re gonna wanna stay, even if you’re like, I don’t know, this is like, this is feeling kind of hard or it’s not working for me. Like, you’ll be scared. You wanna be, yeah. You’ll be scared of leaving. And I think, um, you know, yeah. The truth. Excuse me. Um, yeah, the truth is people, people do wanna lead an exciting life.
And I think for a lot of groups like this, high demand groups or cults, if you wanna call it that, joining does feel exciting ’cause you’ve found these cool new friends and you’ve got a new mission and it’s like you’re part of this community. And I, that’s part of why, you know, one of the takeaways I hope people take away from Empire of Orgasm is this idea that.
Joining a cult. It’s not this thing that only other, you know, it’s not this like other thing, like, only other people would do this. It’s like, well, the desires that are bringing people to that point are desires that you and I all share. It’s like, yeah, we wanna feel adventure, we wanna feel part of something.
We wanna feel purpose, we [01:03:00] wanna be connected to other people.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Ellen: Um, cults offer all of those things. That’s why the, you know, a cult as a concept is actually like a quite, um, steady thing in human history. It’s like, because
Zach: mm-hmm. Yeah. They’re just groups of, of people pursuing something.
Ellen: And what’s interesting is they adapt with a time.
So what a cult look like 50 years ago is gonna be different from what it looks like today. Mm-hmm. And, um, but they, it’s, it’s, it’s almost like this, yeah. This like virus that like adapts and like, continues to stay strong. It’s like, it is, it is something that is a reflection of human nature. So I think mm-hmm.
In many ways, as long as humans are around, they’re, they’re gonna be around too.
Zach: Yeah. And I think I, I do think there’s something, you know, for some people on the more, you know, um, narcissistic side there, it can be hard to distinguish when they’re being deceptive and manipulative versus like, just being true believers, right?
Like, it can be, so sometimes you, you [01:04:00] think, oh, this person’s clearly being deceptive and manipulative, and it’s like, no, maybe in their mind they’re, they really believe that, you know, for whatever variety of reasons that they’re acting in a completely rational way and they’re in their mind like they’re a true believer of X, Y, z, uh, beliefs, or they believe like, in their mind Yeah,
Ellen: I, I would posit that in their mind they think they’re helping people.
Zach: Right.
Ellen: Exactly. So many, yeah, I think that’s,
Zach: I think that’s,
Ellen: yeah. I mean very, you know, of course this has been said before, but I think very few people wake up mm-hmm. And think like, haha can’t wait to do evil today.
Zach: Right.
Ellen: No one thinks that. Um, and, and that doesn’t mean that harm doesn’t get done. That doesn’t mean that there aren’t.
Um, you know, harmful, exploitative, or abusive things that happen. It’s like people, but people don’t think of themselves as hurting other people. They think that they’re helping,
Zach: right? Yeah.
Ellen: They’re doing good or they’re, they’re, they’re pursuing some sort of mission. And so, um,
Zach: yeah.
Ellen: Yeah. That’s why it’s, I think that’s part of it as well.
Zach: That’s why such a, yeah. It’s, it’s a human, just a human gets down to these, these basic human interactions about how we interact with [01:05:00] others. Yeah. Uh, well thank you so much for this, Ellen. I, I love the book and I haven’t finished it. I’m, I’m still reading it. Uh, but do you want to talk about anything else you’re, uh, you’re working on these days before we go?
Ellen: Yeah, I mean, I, I am just, you know, I’m a tech reporter at, at Bloomberg News, so one of my current interests is writing about like, uh, human uh, relationships between humans and AI chatbots. And so like, understanding psychol, like psychol, like, sorry. One of my interests right now is writing about the relationship between humans and AI chatbots and how that’s shaping us psychologically, societally, like that’s an interest of mine.
Um, and surprisingly there are some. Parallels between that and cults and just understanding like what draws people in. What does it mean to be so invested in a relationship with a chat bot that you are isolated from your friends and family, or that you’re drawn away from that
Zach: Mm
Ellen: um, feeling, feeling connected to this thing that is not, maybe doesn’t have your best interests at heart, maybe has no interests at heart because it’s not human.
Um, and [01:06:00] that has been interesting. Um, so, you know, probably by the time this podcast airs, um, there might be a story out from me about that. Um, so keep an eye out for it, but in general, yeah. I think for anyone who’s interested in psychology, cults manipulation, the story of one taste, kind of how sex can get wrapped up in all of this.
Yeah. I highly recommend my, my new book, empire of Orgasm should be out November 18th.
Zach: Okay. Thanks a lot.
Ellen: Thank you so much for having me.
Zach: Alright.