A talk with psychologist Jessica Maxwell (www.jessmaxwell.com) about her research on sexual relationships. We talk about “growth” versus “destiny” views about sex: in other words, whether someone sees sexual satisfaction as something one must work on, or if one sees it as largely an issue of destiny–something that’s either present or it’s not. Other topics include: the role of media in affecting our views on sex; how boredom and lack of novelty can hurt sexual satisfaction; performance-related anxiety; how porn might be affecting people’s ideas of sex; thoughts on scheduled date nights versus more spontaneous attempts at romance; sleeping in separate bedrooms.
A transcript is below.
Podcast episode links:
Resources mentioned in this talk:
- Jessica Maxwell’s Twitter: @jess_a_maxwell
- Paper: Navigating Women’s Low Desire: Sexual Growth and Destiny Beliefs and Couples’ Well-Being
- Paper on “make-up sex”
- Maxwell’s research papers
TRANSCRIPT
[Note: transcripts will contain errors.]
Zach: Hello and welcome to the People Who Read People podcast, with me, Zach Elwood. This is a podcast about better understanding other people, and better understanding ourselves. You can learn more about it at www.behavior-podcast.com.
On today’s episode, I talk to psychologist Jessica Maxwell about her research on sexual relationships. Topics discussed include:
Research into growth vs destiny views as applied to sexual relationships: in other words, whether someone sees sexual satisfaction as something one must work on, or if one sees sexual satisfaction and compatibility as largely an issue of destiny – something that’s either present or it’s not.
The role of media and entertainment in giving us more destiny-like views of relationships
Some of the factors involved in low sexual satisfaction, including boredom and lack of novelty, and performance-related anxiety
The role porn might be playing in affecting people’s views of sex and intimacy
Thoughts on scheduled date nights versus more spontaneous attempts at romance
Sleeping in separate bedrooms and how that might affect a relationship
A little about Jessica Maxwell: she’s an Assistant Professor in the Social Psychology Program of the Department of Health, Aging & Society at McMaster University. Her research focuses on interpersonal relationships and sexuality. She completed her Ph.D. in the Department of Psychology (Social & Personality stream) at the University of Toronto, a SSHRC postdoctoral fellow at Florida State University, and was a Senior Lecturer at the University of Auckland. Her website is at jessmaxwell.com, and you can find her on Twitter at Jess_A_Maxwell.
Just a note that if you enjoy this episode, you might like checking out a previous episode also focused on relationships: it was a talk with researcher Brandi Fink about the behavioral indicators of healthy and unhealthy relationships. That episode also happens to be the most popular one I’ve done: it was even on one person’s compilation of the best podcast episodes of the year.
Okay, here’s the talk with Jessica Maxwell:
Zach: Hi Jessica, welcome to the show.
Jessica: Hi. Thanks so much for having me.
Zach: So maybe we could start with the paper [00:03:00] that led me to your work, which was the paper Navigating Women’s Low Desire, which talked about growth, types of beliefs versus destiny, types of beliefs.
And maybe you could talk a little bit about that study in similar studies and what the, the takeaways were as you saw them for, for people in relationships.
Jessica: Of course. Yeah. So I think to understand this study, we should first kind of lay out what sexual growth mindset and sexual destiny mindset are. And I really was inspired when creating these concepts by broader work on growth mindset versus fixed mindset.
So I’m sure some of your listeners will be familiar with this concept of growth mindset that was originally developed by Carol Dweck and her colleagues. So you see it every day, everywhere these days. You know, applied to fitness, applied to, um, your child’s performance at school, et cetera. So I adapted these concepts to this sexual domain.
And so when I’m talking about sexual destiny. [00:04:00] Are people with a more fixed mindset who think that sexual comp compatibility between partners is evident right from the first sexual encounter? So when I’m measuring sexual destiny beliefs, it’s often with items like successful sexual relationships, um, are either compatible or they’re not.
And part of this is really this idea that, um, sex should just be easy and good if you find your sexual soulmate. So people who are high on sex destiny beliefs don’t necessarily think that you should really have to work to resolve any problems. They’re more of the mindset that, um, good sex will happen if you just find the right partner.
Hmm. And this is in contrast to those people with more of a growth oriented mindset. So I call these people sexual growth believers. And so, uh, you know, growth, kind of think of the analogy of a garden. These are people who think you really need to nurture your sex life and tend to it like a garden. So your sex life needs lots of time and effort to be satisfying.
And so when [00:05:00] you endorse, um, sexual growth beliefs, you tend to believe that you can really work hard to resolve any sexual incompatibilities. And you may even think actually that navigating challenges in your sex life can make your relationship even stronger.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Jessica: So, um, what we found in that particular study, um, led by, uh, Stephanie Raposo at York University in Canada, we were able to look at a sample of women where they had been diagnosed with female sick, sexual interest and arousal disorder.
So it’s these women who experienced clinically low level levels of desire as well as. They’re romantic partners. And what we found in this study is similar to what I find in several other studies now where we see sexual growth beliefs have positive outcomes, where sexual destiny beliefs tend to have more negative outcomes.
So specifically in that study, to kind of give you an example, so when these women with low desire endorse sexual growth beliefs, both they and their partner were more likely to have higher [00:06:00] sexual desire than they, than if they were lower on that. Sexual growth mindset. So seems like believing that sex takes work might have had some, some positive benefits, um, for these women and their partners, which was great.
Um, and in this case we saw sexual destiny beliefs associated with some more negative outcomes. So things like more conflict with your partner as well as poor wellbeing like anxiety and depression. And I’ll like to maybe mention here that, um, although it wasn’t really analyzed necessarily in that study, in some other studies I do, um, what I really find is that for, for sexual destiny believers, you know, things aren’t always necessarily bad for.
If their sex life go is going well, then everything is going well in their relationship. But if they encounter sexual problems like low sexual desire or a sexual dry spell, or any sorts of signs that their partner might not be a good fit for them, so signs of sexual incompatibility, that’s where in particular we see sexual destiny [00:07:00] beliefs having some negative.
So it’s really this idea that for someone high in destiny. To inform them to whether they think their relationship is is good or not, or whether they’re still, you know, with a good mate or not. So they’re a lot which into.
Zach: So do you see, when it comes to the, the growth mindset in the sexual space, do you see that as kind of a subset of general growth mindset?
And would those, you know, would, would somebody with a general growth mindset be very likely to have a growth mindset in the sexual space? Or, or do you see it as kind of like, can they be separate? Dimensions. Do you have an opinion on that?
Jessica: Yeah, no, that’s a great question and I feel like the answer to both is yes.
So, um, yes, it is true that on average people who are more growth, like oriented, you know, whether that’s about their beliefs, about intelligence or personality, if you think I. Things can change. You’re, you’re more likely to [00:08:00] endorse that in the bedroom, but yet on the other hand, um, it’s only a moderate cor correlation.
So it doesn’t mean that everybody with a general growth mindset necessarily believes that in the sexual domain. And so I’ve, you know, done, done some things statistically to make sure that’s the case. But why I think it isn’t always a one-to-one relationship is because I think we really do have these cultural notions that sex should be special and it should be spontaneous.
And, you know, it should be all about chemistry. So, so I, I, I’ve often made the argument that, you know, even other areas of our relationship, I think we expect to put more work in. Like we expect that we’ll have to, you know, negotiate household chores or that we’ll have to work on our, um, communication styles.
But I still think we really have these. Beliefs that, you know, good sex should just happen and that, um, sexual desire should be spontaneous between, you know, two partners who love each other so much and the sparks fly and they can’t wait, wait to rip their clothes off. So I do think that there is something special about our beliefs about sex.
But [00:09:00] having said that, it is of course true that, that it’s, you know, it’s kind of, you’re, you’re thinking correct in that I do see it as kind of a subdomain.
Zach: Have you seen a, uh, a difference statistically in, in men and women and their likelihood to have. Those, the, the, the growth versus the destiny, uh, mindsets.
Jessica: Yeah. So do you have an intuition as to what gender difference you might expect? Well, I’ll put you on the, put you in the hot seat here.
Zach: Yeah. I, I, I, I would guess women would be more likely to have the destiny. Things for a few reasons I could say. But is is that right?
Jessica: Ah, it’s actually the opposite. So that’s actually more interesting then, because we can unpack it.
So I know, and I think that actually kind of in a way might get, so how these beliefs are different than other domains and even maybe different than, mm. The relationship domain, right? So in my research I find that women tend to be higher in sexual growth than men, and men tend to be higher in sexual destiny than women.[00:10:00]
Um, so an important thing I should mention right off the bat is that I do give people scores on both sex destiny and sex growth. So you can kind of endorse both ideas simultaneously. Um, but yeah, so what I think going on and why I. You know, endorse sex growth more is because sex often does take more work for women in order for it to be sexually satisfying.
So I think especially because, you know, in our society sex is often, um, penile vaginal intercourse, which isn’t the most satisfying for women. So I do think part of why women might be endorsing sex growth is because. Work harder to make sure they get that pleasure, um, and stay sexually satisfied. So, so I think that’s what’s sort of going on there.
Whereas I think for men it’s easier. I I, I know it does. Yeah. It’s not necessarily, I think that romantic idea of soulmates that they’re endorsing, but I think it’s more this idea that like, yeah, good sex will just like happen. Um, and, and that is sort of, um, a [00:11:00] black or white thing that you might not need to work as much towards,
Zach: well, what you say actually makes a lot of sense because.
I was gonna tell the story of when I was young, I had sort of these romantic ideas, you know, the, the more destiny types of ideas when I was younger of like, oh, if it’s meant to be, you know, it’ll, everything will, uh, just work out. Whether that was, you know, relationship or, or, or sex or anything. And I had these yes, kind of simplistic.
I, looking back, it’s, it feels really immature, but I think there, there’s some, there is something appealing to that, you know, where it’s like there, the magic has to be there versus like. You know, the re accepting the responsibility that, you know, I have to work at things. So, uh, that, that’s just to say, I, I, it, it aligns actually with, you know.
With me being a guy and having those, uh, kinds of views. So I, I could see what you mean, uh, with the factors of women having to, uh, work more and, and having to be, you know, maybe more in, in the mood and things like this. Um,
Jessica: and your experience resonates where, um, I [00:12:00] do tend to see that as people age, they tend to endorse sexual growth more.
So it could be like you’re saying that destiny.
Simple, simple ideas. Right? And it’s, it’s easier to have those if you haven’t had to navigate too many challenges yet.
Zach: And one of the reasons I guessed that, you know, I would’ve guessed that women had more destiny beliefs was I, I, I is the kind of the stereotype of the, the romantic movies where it’s all about chemistry and not trying hard and like the White Knight, you know, picking, uh, you know, picking someone off of their feet kind of things.
But. I guess, you know, and maybe you could talk a little bit about, about how you see the role of media. Maybe it’s just not a big effect, or maybe there’s, you know, other things that, that, that counterbalance those kind of romantic, uh, destiny kind of. Narratives.
Jessica: No, I think you’ve hit the nail on the head with the media.
Like that’s why, if anyone asks me where I think sexual destiny beliefs come from, I think it definitely is those ideas. Right? And, um, it’s, it’s, uh, sometimes hard to, [00:13:00] to research. But I do think probably those romantic movies and maybe even things like porn could be contributing more to the destiny mindset.
And there’s some, actually some evidence to support. Um, not necessarily about sexual destiny, but just about the idea of sort of destiny, beliefs in relationships and the idea of soulmates. They do find that people who consume more romantic media, so everything from romantic comedies to Disney movies, to things like The Bachelor, that they tend to then endorse these destiny beliefs more.
So I do.
Something I’ve been wondering about if over the course of time I feel like I’ve seen more instances of maybe more realistic sexual portrayals of couples who, you know, have to work on things like there was, you know, movies like this is 40, or movies like, uh, sex Tape, like where couples are kind of really trying to foster the romance.
So I do wonder if like, if we, you know, were gonna speak again in 10 years, maybe we’ll more media portrayals that show more of a sexual [00:14:00] growth mindset, but I. Idea. And then as I mentioned, it does seem like research is supporting your idea that like if you consume the more you consume that romantic media, you’re, you’re probably more likely to endorse that destiny mindset and also some other, you know, potentially harmful beliefs like dating as a game, um, and, and things like that.
Zach: Just to note that I cut out some of our, here I’m gonna cut to a part where we’re talking about how there can be a lot of factors involved in sexual satisfaction. Yeah, it seems like there’s, the more I think about it, there, there seems to be so many factors present. It’s like, you know, your, your growth versus destiny mindset.
You’re, you, you’re, how, how highly you r rate sex. Sex as a, you know, as a concept, like whether you’re willing to work on it or not. Yes. And there’s like how comfortable, comfortable you are talking about. So, yeah. Seems like there’s like a, a whole bunch of factors that could like influence how people Exactly.
And even
Jessica: like also too, even just like how important you view sex in a relationship. So that’s one of the things I always mention when I’m [00:15:00] speaking about this, right? It’s like for some couples, like they’re genuinely satisfied not having much sex and so maybe it’s not as important for them to like, keep trying to like keep the spark alive and spice things up and all like that such.
Zach: So pivoting a little bit in another direction, um, when it comes to the low sexual desire amongst women, which you had said you’d studied, am I understanding correctly that women, uh, female dissatisfaction is, is a, is more of a predictor? Of, of, uh, a relationship, you know, not going well than, than male sexual distraction.
Mm-hmm. Or, or how do you see that, um, that difference there?
Jessica: Yeah, that’s actually a great question because I’ve actually, um, been able to be part of research, um, that tracked newlywed Couples over the first four years of marriage, and we did find sort of your intuition. So what we found was that. If wives were declining in sexual desire over the course [00:16:00] of that four year period, that predicted both them and their partner feeling less satisfied with their marriage, whereas men’s changes in desire didn’t.
Um, so kind of getting at this idea that there might be something special about the wives. Um, and yes, that does seem to be the case, right? Like it’s women are often the ones who.
In tune with their relationship. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think, I mean, it’s, it’s tough. Yeah. There’s so many different kind of things going on right now if we’re talking about women’s desire or women’s sexual satisfaction coming into play. Um, but I, I do think some of these call into question, ’cause I think oftentimes people assume it’s like, oh, it’s like.
Only men who are upset at like a sexless marriage or something like that. Mm-hmm. But increasingly we’re seeing more evidence that that’s not necessarily the case. And actually it might be women who are really sensitive to novelty, um, and really crave that in their sex, sex lives. Mm-hmm. So, [00:17:00] but I do think it, it, it could just be for a few reasons that it’s like women’s satisfaction tends to be the driver of divorce and things like that.
If we’re.
But yeah, I think that that, that, when we speak about it in the sexual domain, it is really interesting. And so a lot of research, um, these days is focused on maybe why women’s desire is declining over the course of relationship, um, and, and questioning some of these gender differences and desire. So we can definitely speak about that, if that’s kind of an area of
Zach: interest.
Yeah. One, one thing I was, I was curious about, you know, it’s obviously when you’ve been in a relationship. For a while. One of the, the, the obstacles there to, you know, continuing sexual interest is just the feeling that you’re, like, you’re too close to your partner. Almost like they’ve become more of a family member than someone, than than a lover, basically.
So, uh, I’m curious, yes. I’m curious, how do you. Uh, do, do you see that as a major factor when it comes to low [00:18:00] sexual interest? Just mm-hmm. The fact that we, we meld together too much, we’re too familiar and we lose that sense of, of otherness, of mystery, of, of excitement.
Jessica: Yeah. I mean that really, a hundred percent.
You’re right. Um, so I’ll, I’ll think about a couple of things here. There’s like a lot, a lot to unpack. Um, if you’re familiar with, um, she talks a lot about this as well, right? This idea that we sometimes. Familiarity and comfort are sometimes like anti to to passion, right? Mm-hmm. So it’s like you’re saying you can be too over really familiar and then you’re not feeling that novelty.
So, um, remind me to come back to the concept of why novelty is so important, but I just wanted to first say that. Yes. Um, so oftentimes this idea of familiarity is. Even something women will just sort of, um, report in qualitative interviews as to why their desires wa waning. Right. So some of it’s this familiarity, um, the lack of mystery.
And I think just even more practically, a lot of it comes down to like, you [00:19:00] know, women are like sometimes still doing their husband’s laundry and having to neg them and get like, take on. Um, that’s not gonna make you feel in the mood, right? If you had to just like, you know, pick up your husband’s dirty socks and things like that.
So I think it’s a mix of, sort of, in a way familiarity. And then also some of that comes into just motherhood roles and, and things like that. And also even just routine, like sexual routines. So I think you’re definitely right. I guess for me, I’m like, it’s like I’m not sure if it’s necessarily like too much
these.
Relationships are so exciting. It’s because you’re discovering something. You know, it’s, it’s really exciting. You’re discovering new things about your partner and so, mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, when you are so close, a lot of research shows that you do have to engage in novelty if you wanna keep the passion up. So, um, there’s some cool research that’s talking about how your passion and a relationship is less about the level of intimacy, but it’s more responsive to [00:20:00] changes in intimacy.
So if you can boost your intimacy levels. You can boost your passion. Um, and so this is where I think some of those, I feel like they’re, they’re always on Instagram and all over the place. There’s like questions to get to know your partner better or like date night conversation starters and things like that.
And I think those actually can be really effective because, um, if you’re doing that with your partner, it’s what we call self-expanding sometimes because you are disclosing and learning more about your partner. Um.
And then ultimately that’s gonna lead to more passion. Um, so we’ll speak about maybe just briefly a couple studies that have shown this. ’cause I think it’ll be something that, um, your listeners will find important, especially ’cause it is kind of like practical things you can maybe do to try to spice up your relationship and add some novelty in a long-term relationship.
So, um, research finds that if you can engage in some novel challenging arou. Not sexually arousing, although that works too. But just like [00:21:00] some new things that can work really well. So, um, one of the classic studies kind of tied partners together, like a three-legged race and had them just do kind of a obstacle course.
Uh, and they had boost some passion and relationship satisfaction afterwards. Um, and then more recently some work. Um. By my colleague Amy has shown that if you just do new things in your day to day life, so it doesn’t have to be elaborate, it can just be things like, you know,
restaurant. I don’t know, playing video games, whatever it is, like something that you’ve never done with your partner that can really boost your sexual desire because again, like you’re, like you were intuiting it. Like it all comes back to novelty. And so the more we can do something that makes us Yeah, switch it up, see your partner in a new light, right.
That can, that can really bring some of that, that romance and that passion back for sure.
Zach: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and something I’ve, I’ve thought about in my relationships, uh, my relationship with my, my wife is. Focusing on the, uh, [00:22:00] on how I feel and, and even, you know, reminding myself that my wife is not, you know, she, she is someone objectively other than me.
She is mysterious. And I, I remind myself of that, you know, uh, periodically where, and I, I didn’t think there’s something to be said for kind of like. Thinking about examining these things internally and being like, well, you know, how would I feel if I just met my wife, like, you know, recently today or something, you know, like my,
Jessica: oh, I love that.
You know, it’s
Zach: like the, we take for granted sometimes I think that people in our lives, it’s like, no, they really are. These strange, mysterious other beings. Right? And it’s like, we forget that. But I think, I think it’s good to remind ourselves of that and how we would feel, you know, for example, if we just met them anew, you know, we would be filled with excitement.
And I, I think that’s a, it’s, I told my wife that I idea of how I consciously do that and. And she kinda laughed at it at first, but I, you know, as if, as if I was diluting myself. Yeah. But, and I was saying [00:23:00] no, it’s, it’s not diluting, it’s like reminding myself of, of the truth. You know? It’s like, yes. The delusion is that we, we feel like we’re stuck in these routines with these people and that we fully know them when they are actually exciting other people.
Still mysterious. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Jessica: Oh, I love that. It’s almost like, I would love to do a study on that to see if that like, ’cause it makes sense or you’re almost doing like a. You’re imbuing novelty by just kind of trying to bring yourself back to the early days of dating. And it reminds me of how, a common thing I think that, um, I always see it on the internet is like this idea to go back to your first date spot.
Mm-hmm. Or try to recreate your first date. And I, I see it as kind of related to what you’re saying too, because it’s kind of trying to get you. Where your partner was very new and kind of unknown and mysterious to you, and, uh, mm-hmm. It reminds me too, I think it’s, um, a very common thing in like different cultures.
Maybe I, I, I’m thinking like France, there’s that stereotype that people like purposely try to keep a bit of mystery from their partner. Whereas I feel like, um, that’s less of a thing here. So I love that idea of maybe just [00:24:00] like reminding yourself, like, how would I feel if. Bring yourself back to that, whether it’s just mentally or sometimes even physically going back to the first spot where you met.
Um
Zach: mm-hmm. Could
Jessica: be a great way to, to keep it, keep, keep it fresh.
Zach: Yeah. It’s kinda like taking the, the internal approach versus the, the external approach, which, you know, might, can, can affect the other person through your, through your interactions. Just, just another, maybe another, another tool. Exactly. Um.
Jessica: Oh, I was just gonna say, it reminds me also of how like a lot of people find, um, fantasizing about their sex, like, about their current partner to be really rewarding as well. So I think you can do that a little bit through your sexual fantasies and like, you know, it’s a way to, to imbue some novelty again, kind of internally,
Zach: right?
It’s always to combat that, that feeling of. Boredom and routine, however you however you do it. E
Jessica: exactly. Yeah, exactly.
Zach: Uh, so I was curious about if, if you had any opinions on the, you know, pe uh, couples staying in, in different bedrooms and, uh, this is something my wife and I talked about periodically because we used to, we used to kind [00:25:00] laugh at the idea or like think that that was like a sign of a.
A bad relationship. And then like, as we’ve gone on, we’re like, well, it does, you know, on the other hand it does increase the mystery and otherness of the other person. And, uh, so maybe there’s, you know, something to be said for that. But I’m curious if you’ve seen any research one way or another on that.
Jessica: Um, that’s a great question. So I, I am also, I’m an advocate for sleeping in separate bedrooms if you need to, right. So I haven’t directly seen research on it, but from other research, I think it would support that idea. So. We know that sleep is so important for relationship quality, so couples who are sleeping better, like when people have a good night’s rest, they’re better able to navigate conflict.
You know, they’re more likely to accommodate to their partner and not make like mountains out of molehill. So I think, mm-hmm. Oftentimes. If sleeping in a different bedroom is gonna give you that higher quality sleep, that is so important. Right? Because that’s gonna actually, to me, that’s gonna, and the research supports that, right?
That like sleep is [00:26:00] important for relationship quality, so. Mm-hmm. So I would, I would choose that hands down over having a, that night’s sleep with your partner. Because I also think it’s important to keep in mind that like. Just because you sleep in the same bed doesn’t mean that you’re touching and, and, and vice versa, right?
You can still have sex and then go into separate rooms and, and sleep, or you can engage another affectionate touch and just keep, keep sleeping separate. And in, in some ways, if to kind of link back to what we just. Spoke about like maybe that might even ke keep that air of mystery or some novelty if you’re not, if your partner’s not right, like super available to you.
Right? And you have to kind of sneak in intimacy. So, um, of the opinion that, that, that sleep is gonna trump. Everything else. So, um, you’ll be a better romantic partner if you have a good night’s sleep and we know that better relationships, you’re gonna have better sex. So, uh, when it comes down to it, I think, I think nothing wrong with separate bedrooms.
I mean, people even go so far as to, you know, live apart together where they’re living in separate apartments and still together. [00:27:00] So I think, um, all of these are kind of just, uh, modern ways of handling some different, um, problems. Yeah.
Zach: Do you have an opinion on. The concept of people scheduling their, basically scheduling their, their sex via way the, the route of like date nights and such.
Because on the one hand I can see how that is a practical solution for people that don’t, don’t often get the time together. But also on the other hand, I could see it as being a little bit too, you know, routine and like putting some pressure on of. You know, uh, performing and being in the mood and, and creating some anxiety.
So I’m curious if you have any opinions on the, on that idea.
Jessica: Yeah, and I mean, this question is so great ’cause we’re recording this on Valentine’s Day, which is like such one of those days, right? Where I feel like there is the expectation. I love that you asked this because I, I just read a study. It just came out.
Um, so some research, uh, has, has looked at this about planning sex versus [00:28:00] spontaneous sex. So this is research led by Kava at York University, and what she found actually is that. People believe that spontaneous sex will be better versus planned sex. But when people, you know, recall back to the last sex they had, there’s no differences in satisfaction as to whether it was planned or spontaneous, even amongst people who think that spontaneous sex should be better.
So I think again, it kind of relates in a way that sexual destiny, this idea that sex should just be good, doesn’t matter. Also reminded. I’ve, I’ve always kind of, even before that came out, I was always like, yeah, planning stuff should be totally fine. Um, for a couple reasons. I think just practically for busy couples, like making sure to mm-hmm.
To have that on the calendar can be important. And then also, um, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with Emily NGO’s work at On Come As You Are. So she’s got a podcast and a book and it’s about this idea of responsive desire. So oftentimes, especially for women, but it’s true of all genders. Like you can [00:29:00] kind of.
Get in the mood as you get going. So sometimes you know, you might not have. You might not have spontaneous sex if like, so you might not have sex if you wait for the desire to happen spontaneously. But if you have this sort of placeholder, uh, and then you, you know, you do this intimate activity, you’re setting the stage for, for intimacy and you know you’re reducing your stress and all of these things, then you might actually find, you get in the mood and you, and you know, so when your partner kisses you, now you.
Kind of set that up. And then I think also some of those rituals that come with date night, like maybe if you know it’s on the schedule, maybe you know, you’re showering for your partner or you’re shaving or whatever it might be. And so that can maybe enhance your kind of anticipation and, and things like that.
So, um, I mean, I think both types of sex can be great, but I definitely. I mean, if anything, the research supports like it’s totally fine to plan. And I think that’s sort of, kind of the reality for busy couples is that sex might not happen if you, if you wait for both partners [00:30:00] to desire it at the same time when the kids are in bed and no one’s stressed with work, it’s like, okay, you might be waiting a very, very long time.
Zach: Right. It seems more important the the busier you are, which, and we’re all pretty. Busy these days. Yeah. Uh, so I, but I mean,
Jessica: I guess what I’d say with that too is like, I think it’s important. Like you were, you were right too. Or you’re saying like, you don’t want people to be in the performance mindset either.
Right. So I think it’s important to know too, that like if you’re not feeling it that night, even if it’s state night, like you can, you can reject your partner, right? Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right.
Zach: And that’s, uh, yeah, I was gonna say, yeah, I’ll, I’ll, I’ll mention my wife whether she appreciates this or not, because.
When we, when we had taken that kind of like, well, let’s set a, you know, let’s set a, a date night kind of thing. She, she didn’t like the. The feeling of, of the pressure it created, even though I, you know, I, I, I, I try to emphasize, you know, like, Hey, if you’re not in the mood, uh, it doesn’t matter. Like, yeah, you’re not in the mood.
You know, I, that’s how you, that’s how you diffuse. You, you try to diffuse that expectation. Like, look, if you don’t, if you don’t feel like it, like. That’s fine. Like there’s no [00:31:00] pressure. Yeah.
Jessica: Yes. Yeah. And I think that’s so great and like there’s a lot of great work now on like how you can reject your partner in a way that can be better for your relationship and, and oftentimes it also just really revolves around reassuring your partner that you’re still attracted to them, of course.
And just, you know, and just be sometimes being honest’s like, yeah, I still love you, but like. I feel really full from my head at dinner. I’m just not in the mood tonight kind of thing.
Zach: Well, yeah, I think, I think that gets into the difficulty of these things ’cause it’s like, it is such a difficult thing to talk about.
Like even for people that are, you know. It’s very open about these things because it can be like, you know, you don’t want to hurt your partner’s feelings, so you can avoid talking about a range of things just out of, no matter how open, open you are, just out of the, the, you know, because you don’t want to hurt your partner, which, which then gets in the way.
And you know, the, it’s like there’s, there’s a, there’s so many obstacles that can be present for like being. Open and honest about this stuff. Yeah,
Jessica: yeah, yeah. It’s such a sensitive and [00:32:00] vulnerable area that I think it’s like sexual communication is something that that really is more loaded than, than other forms of communication.
Like it’s so important. But like you’re saying, like there’s so many open people who struggle with it, and I always love, I always tell my class finding that like. When you ask people if they can talk to their partner about sex or, you know, and most, like the majority of couples are saying, of course, like, I can definitely talk to my partner about sex.
And then you say, okay, well how many of you had a serious conversation about sex with your partner in the last year? Right. Then it’s like, okay, only a third half. You know? So it’s like, I think mm-hmm. I think we’re always like, of course I can talk. But yeah, it’s, uh, it’s tougher to actually have those conversations for sure.
Zach: Yeah. It’s like getting into that thing that people sometimes say where like America is like superficially very open about sex, like on the surface and we like yes to Yeah. You know, we like, we like to give the appearance that we’re open about it, but I think we’re like, you know, as people say, we’re, we’re actually pretty, can be pretty prudish about it when you.
Get down to the actual like, yes, yes. Yeah. Actual intimacy or [00:33:00] like the details, you know, the, uh, yeah, yeah.
Jessica: And I was gonna say there’s even differences. Um, so we are more liberal here in Canada, for sure.
Zach: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Uh, so one, some research that you did was about makeup sex. The, the idea that, uh, of, of having, uh, sex after some, some conflict.
Uh, and, and that was interesting because it. It’s related to our, how our perceptions can sometimes be off in these things. And maybe you could talk a little bit about what you found there.
Jessica: For sure. Yeah. ’cause I, I was surprised at the time. I, I really had, couldn’t find any research on makeup sex. And, and I know, again, kind of speaking to how we were talking about the media before and, and cultural ideas, like I think this is something that’s really prevalent about the media, this idea that.
Makeup sex should be really hot and satisfying. And when I’m talking about this, I often use, like, there’s a Jerry Seinfeld quote where he says like, the only sex you’ll ever have makeup better than makeup sex is if you get sent to prison and you have a visit. So he’s like, oh my gosh, makeup, sex, sex is [00:34:00] the best.
And I was like, okay, well is that true? Um, and I should say off the bat, it’s not like the. Best test of makeup sex because I used existing data. So I know if people had a conflict and sex with their partner that day. I can’t always say for sure they were like considering it, makeup sex. But other than that caveat, um, what we found, so this was again a sample of newlywed couples.
They had all been married within the previous four months in Texas. When we tracked them every night for two weeks, each day we’d say, okay, did you, um, disagree with your partner today? How satisfied are you with your marriage today? And if they had sex? We said, how satisfied were you with the sexual experience?
Mm-hmm. Um, and I was first curious about whether people were more or less likely to have sex on a day when they had conflict, because. You know, would be a, a number one turnoff. But on the other hand, we, we have this idea of makeup, sex, um, and you could also think that like the arousal from, from fighting might actually kind of help your sex life, right?
Like that fiery [00:35:00] passion kind of idea. Um, but what we found was, first of all, having a fight was unrelated to your likelihood of having sex that day. So it was like. You know, they, they were just unrelated. What, like the likelihood of having sex was not contingent on whether or not you had a conflict. Um, that day when I looked then first at whether if you had sex on a conflict day, if the sex was better, I actually found the opposite.
So, so essentially makeup sex was worse in terms of how satisfying the sexual experience was. So people were saying, you know, the wasn’t that great. But what I thought was interesting is I kind of took a step back and I’m like, okay, well if. Sex on conflict days is pretty, you know, it’s not crappy sex ’cause it’s still pretty satisfying.
It’s just not as good as on days without conflict. I was like, there has to be some reason people still do this. Um, or that we have the idea of makeup sex. And so what I found there was that having sex on a conflict day can help preserve your relationship from some of the negativity that comes with conflict.
So the link between [00:36:00] conflict and your daily marital quality, it was reduced when you had sex. So it’s like, obviously couples are gonna be happier on days when they don’t fight compared to days when they do fight. But having sex on a day you fight can help reduce some of that negativity. So the, the, the kind of sum up of this research is like it.
Seems like, at least in my sample makeup sex was less satisfying, but that it could maybe serve this broader relationship function. And so I’m really curious to hopefully, um, you know, start to replicate this and look like I’m currently collecting data so I can see like, okay, well does like the exact time between a fight and sex matter here, things like that.
But, um, my, my, um. But the advice I give is sort of like, at least from my research, it seems like, don’t go into it thinking that you’re gonna have like amazing makeup sex, like maybe we see in movies, but it does seem like it can still have some relationship benefits.
Zach: Yeah, I can see what you mean there too, in that it, it maybe wasn’t the best dataset.
’cause some of those instances might have been people being like, oh, I, I, I, I wouldn’t have considered it [00:37:00] makeup sex. I kind of felt pressured or something like that. You know, like there could have been some elements of that in the, in the data. Yeah.
Jessica: Yes. Yes. And I also made sure, ’cause some people ask me this, I’m like, um, I do make sure I like, take out any conflicts that were about sex as well.
So I had like some funny ones too, being like, oh, my wife wanted to call me a Game of Thrones character name during sex and I didn’t like that, and things like that. So that’s, uh, I, I, I, I took those, I took those out when looking at the data. So it’s, it’s non-conflict sex, but like you’re saying direct for sure.
Zach: But yeah, I could see how that would it, it could be. Not that satisfying because it can almost seem like it’s a distraction from dealing with your. Your real issues that you, you, you might be, you know, you, you could have solved by talking about it more or something like that. Yes. Yeah.
Jessica: Yes. I’m glad you remembered that because I always forget that I kind of had this insight that I was like, okay, well maybe people who like have sex on conflict days will be like happier down the line or maybe they’ll be less happy ’cause they’re using it as a bandaid solution.
But we didn’t see any [00:38:00] kind of thing about like if you had sex on conflict days that predicted your, um, marital quality like a year later. But I do imagine, like if you’re. If you’re always using sex as like a conflict resolution strategy, it might be good now and again, but it’s really not gonna be good because you’re not gonna solve the problem properly.
Right. It’s like, kind of like the same as when you use humor to diffuse a conflict, like you’re not, you’re not actually addressing the underlying issue. So I I, yeah. I wouldn’t recommend sex as a conflict resolution strategy more than once or twice. Right. But
Zach: the, the bonding’s good, but there could be some other, uh, contextual.
Things going on there.
Jessica: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
Zach: So, uh, I’ll say when I was, when I was young, like in my. Mid, uh, twenties, I, I had a lot of anxiety and depression issues and that actually culminated in me having some performance anxiety. I had some, uh, you know, basically anxiety induced impotence with a, a few partners and it was, you know, basic, basically do as I saw it, to [00:39:00] my anxiety and.
Depression issues. And uh, actually I did a poll recently on Twitter asking like how common that was for, for men. Oh. And surpri surprisingly high. Like it was like, you know, almost 40% of people said that they had a period of time, uh, of guys anyway, assuming that guys only answered it, uh, about 40% or something said that they had a period of their life where they had some anxiety induced impotence.
You know, that, that spanned a range of time, uh, which is really interesting to me. And I was curious, have you seen, do you know if there’s much. Research on that. That’s, that’s definitely something that, you know, guys yes, guys don’t like to talk about and, and you don’t hear about very often, but I was curious if you know anything about
Jessica: No, that’s true.
Oh, that’s a great point. And I will make sure I note here that I’m like not a clinical psychologist in my research is more in social psychology, but I do know in general there is research on this and also some research just on how, you know. Mental health affects your sex life. And then it ends up being a vicious cycle, right?
Where like you’re maybe mm-hmm. You know, you’re depressed and then you have worse [00:40:00] sex and then that makes you more depressed and things like that. Um, but I like this kind, kind of the, the theme also about, um, you know, the performance pressure. And I think that’s also goes back to like societal scripts right there, a lot pressure.
On males to be performing sexually. And we still have beliefs that men should always want sex and always be ready for sex. And so ultimately, I think this is damaging both men and women’s sexual experience, right? Because it’s like, you know, women, uh, it’s not as, it’s not seen as negatively if they’re like, oh, I’m not in the mood for sex.
Or like, oh, you know, I’m like, but depressed or whatever. Like, I don’t want sex. Whereas.
And so, yeah, I don’t know if I have too much good insight here ’cause it’s not quite my area of research other than saying that I do know it’s common. And also that, um, I think at the end of the day it’s, it’s unfortunate. And I think things like porn are probably like, you know, making it a little bit worse because again, it’s always showing us just like.
The [00:41:00] hot, good sex and not like the realities, you know? So I really think it links almost back to like the beginning of our conversation where we were talking about how like, you know, this idea that sex should always be good and wonderful and easy and blah, blah, blah, and no one’s really showing like, yeah, like this happens, right?
And yeah, it’s not gonna be perfect all the time. The reality. Yeah. Yeah. And then of course, as soon as you start to feel anxious about performing in the bedroom, that’s awful because, you know, you’re, you’re, I don’t mean, yeah. It’s a vicious, it’s a vicious cycle. And there’s so much research too about now about how.
Being present in the moment. And sexual mindfulness can be really important. And so I think it’s like, if you’re nervous about performing, um, whether we’re talking about, you know, like an erection or we’re talking about women with orgasm, just any kind of anxiety is gonna detract from the sexual experience and make you less mindful of your current sensations.
And, and then yeah, perpetuate it all.
Zach: Yeah, it’s very much like the general idea of rumination for, you know, depression and anxiety where it’s. It’s [00:42:00] a vicious cycle. All all of these things, because the more you think about it, the more it messes you, you up when no matter what you’re doing, whether it’s sex or, or anything, and that, so the more you think about it, the, the, the worse you feel, uh, that makes you yes.
You know, make, makes you feel worse. You, you, you can’t perform at whatever it is. Uh, social interactions or sex or whatever. So it’s all of these, uh, these compounding, you know, that, that the vicious, um. Storm cycle of, of depression and anxiety kind of thing. Yeah.
Jessica: Yeah. And it reminds me too, of how, um, people who are particularly kind of anxious about their relationship, so those with more of a anxious attachment style, who are, you know, maybe worried their partner’s gonna leave them.
I. They’re also likely to kind of ruminate, um, on sex. So if they have bad sex one day, it’s more likely to negatively affect their relationship the next day. So I think it kind of speaks to that as well, that like, if it’s, if you’re kind of in your head, you really are, um, placing a lot of of weight on a sexual experience such that it might, um, bleed over to negatively detract from your [00:43:00] relationship the next day.
Zach: Yeah, that was definitely in, in my experience ’cause, because I definitely struggled with anxiety and depression when I was younger and so, you know. Every, everything starts to feel when you’re feeling bad, everything feels like the end of the world. You know, it’s like, oh, I, this one incident defines me now, you know, this, this one bad.
Yes. Yeah. Sexual encounter or whatever it may be, social encounter. It’s like, oh, I’m, I’m completely broken because I, I, I, that’s who I was in that moment, you know? And, and you ruminate on that and, and it messes your self-conception up and so on. Yeah.
Jessica: And I think it really links even back to how we were talking about sexual communication, right?
So it’s like, I think if as a society we were better about being honest, I think that people would realize, oh my gosh, it’s so normal, you know, to have like a bad sexual experience or to not like, you know, all of those things. But it’s because we’re not talking about it. We’re left to media and other sources or porn or you know, so it’s like we need to be, I think all of these things as we better about speaking about mental health, but then also just speaking about our sex lives.[00:44:00]
Comforting is when I just tell people things like it’s normal for sex to, to take work. It’s normal, like for sexual satisfaction to decline just a year into your relationship. And um, you know, it’s like couples on average are only having sex once or twice a week. Um, so it’s like, I think, I think sometimes a lot of these things, when we get in our head, it’s because we’re not talking about it and we don’t realize that our experiences are much more common than we.
Zach: I wanted to ask you about, uh, porn and how you see it as affecting young people, especially that their, uh, conception or, or enjoyment of sex. And I, I’ll say I, I think it, it strikes me as somebody who hasn’t looked at much, much research or anything, it, it strikes me that I would think it would be pretty damaging the, the ubiquity or the, the ease of, of watching porn for young people, just because it is such a.
Distorted sense of, uh, depiction of what sex is. And so, uh, kind of an [00:45:00] alienating and, and non-intimate and performative, uh, vision of what sex is and an un un unhealthy basically. And, uh, so, but I’m curious if there, if you’ve seen or. Research or have opinions on, you know, how, how porn might be affecting, uh, people’s conceptions of
Jessica: Yeah.
Like some of these things. Oh my gosh, I feel like you should honestly do like a full episode on porn. ’cause there’s really so much to unpack. Mm-hmm. And I’m like. You know, I keep tabs on the research, but I’m not like the expert in that field, like, or by any means. But what I will say is, yes, I think it’s true.
So people have pointed to maybe the, the increase in porn is one of the reasons why younger people are actually having less sex than before. So Gen Z is having less, fewer sexual partners, less sex compared to, um. So I think on the one hand, yes, there’s, there’s definitely some downsides of porn and there there is some research also suggesting that sometimes people will try to, you know, um, mimic behaviors they see in porn, which I think could be great, but [00:46:00] not, not in context where it’s like your first date with someone and you haven’t asked.
Stem or, you know, things like that. Like just don’t, don’t, don’t go straight to that. I think from what I see as the issue is not just the rise in porn, but it’s corresponding. Also, there’s, there’s a lack of sex education, right? So, um, there is some evidence that as people, if people have good sex education and that our experience like that, um, viewing porn, it’s not so it
in young people porn use, but. A lack of sex education that you’re gonna see the most negative outcomes. Um, and then when we, when it comes to say, like adults using porn in their relationship, um, one of the things that’s interesting is actually like couple members being similar in their porn use might be really important.
So I think when we see some of the more, you know, there’s a lot of like, I think, scare articles out there on like porns ruining relationships and sometimes those are cases where like. [00:47:00] Someone’s using it, um, like secretly in private and not like. It’s out in the open, or both couple members are into it or they view it together,
Zach: or, or yeah.
They’re addicted or something
Jessica: like, yes. Yeah. And actually, like even the, uh, even the concept of porn addiction is actually like, debated. Mm-hmm. So, um, it’s, it really is like a fascinating, yeah. I really think you should unpack it in like a. Because it’s, it’s quite lot to say it’s quite interesting and there’s so many things.
There’s lot to say. And I think, um, I used to make my class actually debate like whether porn was good or bad and find arguments on both sides because it’s one of those issues that you can kind of cherry pick findings to argue for either side, if that makes sense. Mm-hmm. So it was always a really fun exercise and thought exercise, um, to kind of see that play out.
And I think too, it’s sometimes difficult is like when we talk about porn, it’s, I feel it’s not. You know, it’s such a broad concept that it’s like, of course it’s not gonna be, um, homogenous. So it’s like, okay, watching like feminist made porn is [00:48:00] gonna be very different from watching like. Revenge porn or watch, you know, like, so, um, there’s so many kind of different layers there, but mm-hmm.
But yeah, I, I do think in, in, in, in, especially if you’re not talking about sex or don’t have that, that framework of education, then porn could be contributing to some of these things. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Zach: Factor. Yeah. Uh, so is there anything you’d like to mention about work that you’re especially proud of before we, uh.
Wrap it up.
Jessica: Oh, what I was like, what am I. Sorry, that should be like the easiest question, right? Um, can I actually say one thing you might find interesting? So, um, I’ll talk about, maybe I’ll just say two things here. The body of work I’ve done on sexual growth and sexual dusty beliefs. Um, some of the interesting samples we found these findings in are.
Samples of new parents who have just given birth to their first child. Um, I’ve also looked at it in middle aged women experiencing breast cancer and some [00:49:00] preliminary data on women with menopausal symptoms. And what I think is really encouraging is we’re finding the same thing sort of over and over again, that that growth mindset is having positive links.
Um, and the destiny mindset tends to be associated with negative things.
And, um, I see the same thing again. So those growth beliefs predict your satisfaction as your relationship unfolds, which is really cool. Um, but I do also wanna give a shout out that I’m not the only one who’s, um, now looked at growth and destiny. And so people have also looked at very similar concepts, like, do you think your passion can change or do you think sexual attraction can change?
And what I really think is amazing is that all
measure. Believing that you can change and, and, um, things aren’t set in stone. Seems to be really advantageous in the sexual domain.
Zach: Well, this has been, uh, this has been great. Thanks for your time, Jessica. Thanks for coming on.
Jessica: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah, no [00:50:00] problem. And I’m happy to come back anytime or link you up to anyone else.
And I really appreciate getting the chance to talk about this research.
Zach: That was a talk with social psychologist Jessica Maxwell. Her website is at jessmaxwell.com, and you can find her on Twitter at Jess_A_Maxwell.
And just a reminder that if you enjoy this episode, you might like checking out a previous episode also focused on relationships: it was a talk with researcher Brandi Fink about the behavioral indicators of healthy and unhealthy relationships. That episode also happens to be the most popular one I’ve done.
This has been the People Who Read People podcast, with me, Zach Elwood. You can learn more about this podcast and subscribe to an ad-free version of it at www.behavior-podcast.com.
Thanks for listening.