I talk with Jackie Miller, host of the podcast “Out of Crazy Town: Your Guide to Divorcing a Narcissist.” Jackie shares her personal story of escaping a coercively controlling, psychologically abusive marriage—and how that led her to try to help others navigating similar nightmarish situations. We talk about how these relationships evolve from subtle manipulation into abusive domination and control; and we talk about the mind-bending psychology of narcissistic abuse—projection, gaslighting, smear campaigns, and the delusional self-justifications that make these people so hard to understand. Jackie also describes why victims often seem “crazy” to outsiders, how abusers weaponize children and the legal system, and why staying calm in the face of harassment can be the most powerful defense.
Episode links:
- YouTube (includes video)
- Apple Podcasts
- Spotify
Related resources:
- Episode about the spectrum of narcissism
- Episode about the narcissistic abuse in Bad Vegan
- Paper on how narcissism may lead to poor memory
- Behavioral indicators of good and bad relationships
TRANSCRIPT
(Transcript is done automatically, and will contain errors.)
Jackie Miller: “And after a relationship with a a disordered person like this, you end up this shell of yourself. And I’m thinking, how did I start out this really successful, independent, um, owned my own home, was a, you know, climbing the corporate ladder, making a lot of money. How’d I go from that to 16 and a half years later? I don’t have my name on one bank account. I don’t have access to one penny.”
Welcome to the People Who Read People podcast, hosted by me, Zachary Elwood. In this episode, I talk with Jackie Miller, host of the podcast “Out of Crazy Town: Your Guide to Divorcing a Narcissist,” about her personal experience in a psychologically abusive marriage and the insights she’s gained helping others leave highly narcissistic and abusive partners. She created her podcast to give people practical advice on surviving post-separation abuse—which is when controlling individuals escalate their behavior after their partner leaves them, using legal, financial, and emotional abuse and manipulation.
Topics we discuss include: the various ways toxically narcissistic people respond to being left by their parnters, which can include smear campaigns, stalking behaviors, stealing email and phone accounts and devices, trying to turn the kids against the other parent, legal harassment of various sorts, and more. We talk about the common patterns of behavior and thinking malignant narcissists have: their inability to ever admit fault, their obsessive need to control narratives, and their patterns of projection—accusing others of the bad things that they themselves have done and are doing. We also talk about psychological factors: what motivates these people to try to make their own partners’ and children’s lives a living hell? What makes such people so weak that they can’t bear looking inward and always must be lashing out at others? It’s admittedly very hard to understand; but we should try to understand it, as it helps us recognize such personalities and deal with them.
You can learn more about Jackie Miller at her website https://www.jackiemillercoaching.com/. Or search for ‘out of crazy town’ on youtube or other podcast platforms; I’ve listened to quite a few of her episodes and there are some really good and helpful talks in there for people dealing with such abuse.
Narcissism as a label is so overused these days; the word gets thrown around way too much; but there are clearly some people who are highly narcissistic and who, as a group, show many common and predictable behaviors. If you enjoy this talk, I think you’d like a previous episode where I talk with Craig Malkin, author of the bestselling book Rethinking Narcissism. That was a popular episode, as we delved into the nuance of narcissism; from the more healthy and normal forms to the more toxic, malignant forms.
If you like this podcast, please subscribe to it on the platform you listen or watch on, and please share episodes. The podcast has been doing pretty well these days; a typical episode is getting between 7,000 to 8,000 listens in the first month of release on audio platforms, and some episodes get quite a bit more views on youtube. Getting more listeners is the main way I’m incentivized to work on new episodes and keep this going. If you’ve enjoyed listening, sharing episodes and subscribing are the best ways you can encourage me to work on it more.
Okay, here’s the talk with Jackie Miller….
Zach: Hi Jackie. Thanks for joining me.
Jackie: Hi, how are you? I’m so glad to be here.
Zach: Yeah, thank you. I’m, I’m good. Uh, so maybe we could start with. Uh, how did you start your podcast? What led you to that?
Jackie: Absolutely. Uh, so I have a podcast called Out of Crazy Town, your Guide to Divorcing A Narcissist.
And that’s because I divorced one and, um, I, I named it that and used that word because it’s just widely recognizable now. But it’s basically about divorcing individuals who are pathological, um, and very disordered and. They [00:01:00] just end up in a, a level of conflict you can’t even imagine. And, and, um, I know that you had mentioned this e even in our written correspondence, but we use high conflict all the time to describe these divorces.
I. And that’s not really what they are. There’s one disordered individual causing 99.999% of the problems, and the other person just wants it to stop, but they can keep the damage, the chaos going for a very long time, and it’s terrifying. And when I got into the family court system, I couldn’t. Believe what happened.
I couldn’t have ever guessed what the, those court professionals think or how they approach things. Um, there are so many pitfalls that just the average person doesn’t understand until you get into that system. And, and attorneys can do their best, but they, you know, you can’t sit with them all day long and, uh, you know, have them explain everything to you.
That’s too expensive. And, um, you sound [00:02:00] crazy sometimes when you’re trying to tell people. What’s going on. They just, they can’t believe it. And, you know, eventually their eyes glaze over. And so I thought, you know, I have to create a resource that people can go to and get information, you know, that’s a little bit legal, a little bit mental health, a little bit, you know, real world and, and just hear what other people have gone through.
And so that’s why I started my podcast.
Zach: Yeah. That’s what stood out to me. I was, when I was searching online for this kind of thing, your, um, your work definitely stood out. It didn’t seem like there were many other people. Doing what you do. Try to, trying to help people. Oh, sorry. Trying to help people through those situations.
So that’s, um, yeah. Very good. You’re doing that. Um, do you want, do you wanna talk a little bit about, I don’t know if you want to, if you talk about this, but do you wanna talk about your story? Uh, yeah. In a little bit more detail if, if you’re willing. Sure,
Jackie: sure. So I was married for 16 and a half years and, uh, I often say that.
After about three years, I knew I was in trouble. Um, but I knew that [00:03:00] leaving him was going to be a nightmare. And we had two children right away. And, uh, I just thought I can’t. For me, it was my personal decision and everybody’s situation is different. I couldn’t fathom leaving before they could really talk and articulate themselves and know they’re at his house probably 50% of the time.
Because most states love 50 50 regardless of what the other parent, you know, the other parents. Like if, you know, we have a saying, if, if you have a pulse, you’re a great parent in the family court system, so. It, I, I, I, it took me a long time to muster not only the courage, but there was a lot of financial control and financial abuse, frankly.
And I had no access to any money after 16 and a half years of marriage. And there was plenty of money. I had no access. My name was on nothing. And you, for people that go through something like this, um, part of the reason I started the podcast as well is I wanted to let. [00:04:00] People know, I wanted to validate them, that you can be this really intelligent, outgoing, successful individual.
And after a relationship with a a disordered person like this, you end up this former shell of yourself. And I’m thinking, how did I start out this really successful, independent, um, owned my own home, was a, you know, climbing the corporate ladder, making a lot of money. How’d I go from that to 16 and a half years later?
I don’t have my name on one bank account. I don’t have access to one penny. Nothing is in my name, like, and it was a deliberate, slow, insidious. You know, um, exercise of control over me over time, that included isolation and financial control that you don’t see happening in real time. And it’s not until you look back that you realize, oh my gosh, this is how I ended up here.
And so, because I went through that and then when I entered the family court system, you, you may [00:05:00] be experiencing abuse in your marriage. But once you leave what’s called post-separation abuse kicks in and that person has lost control over you in the normal ways that they had control when you were under the same roof.
So now that they have to pick up different tools. And to sort of try to continue to maintain that control and abuse of you. And so it turns into legal abuse. It turns into financial abuse using different tools. It turns into, you know, weaponizing the children. So they pick up these other tools to continue the control and abuse.
And there is literally a wheel now called the posts post separation abuse wheel that you can look up and see all of the tools, um, even if the person wasn’t necessarily. A stalker during the relationship. Many of them pick up stocking tools because. They don’t know what’s going on and they need information to control the narrative.
They need information to continue the smear campaigns. [00:06:00] They need information to be able to manipulate you better in court and manipulate the way people think about you. So they very often will engage in, um, you know, higher sort of elevated stalking mm-hmm. Uh, practices to try to maintain that control and gain information about you.
Zach: Right? Yeah. Uh, yeah. It just seems like thinking about these cases. It seems like there’s so many, uh, aspects that are demoralizing that, you know, like you said, can make you feel like a shell of yourself. I mean, there’s the fact that it just, it, it’s so, uh. It’s so demoralizing and, and, uh, crazy making that someone would do these things.
That’s, that’s the one aspect that knowing that someone who theoretically is supposed to be, you know, care about you would do these things or anyone really would do ’em. It’s disturbing. Uh, and then b it’s like knowing that, you know, beating yourself up a little bit, maybe thinking like, how did I let this happen as a part of it too, even though, you know.
[00:07:00] That shouldn’t be a part of it, but it just seems like there’s multiple areas that can make you just really feel like, who am I? Like how did I get to this? Place a absolutely life. Yeah, absolutely.
Jackie: And depending on, on the dynamics too and the relationship, you know, and I meant kind of hinted to this earlier in mine, I was afraid to then create a situation where my children were alone with him and not have, you know, any coping skills or just be, you know, defenseless if, you know, he becomes volatile or you know, they just start really.
Saying bad things about you and, and putting the kids really in the middle and forcing them to choose and like, you know, just have these loyalty conflicts, you know, between parents and that’s a whole nother dynamic. But the, the coercive control, which is a word I didn’t have, you know, until well after my.
Uh, divorce, uh, that term really didn’t exist in everyday conversation, so I didn’t understand, for instance, why he wouldn’t blatantly say I [00:08:00] couldn’t go out with my friends. But if I, I look back over the relationship, he let me know so many different ways that if I went out for a glass of wine with my friends, I was gonna pay for it, right?
Uh, there’d be days of silent treatment. There would be. Um, underhanded comments to, while we’re out with friends about, you know, I just go party all the time and I don’t take care of my kids. Like things that just are blatantly not true. But I would have to suffer death by a thousand paper cuts if I did something like go out and have a glass of wine with my friends.
And so I would very often make plans, and then at the 11th hour when I was supposed to leave, I would call them and back out. Because I couldn’t, I was too afraid to tell him. Mm-hmm. I was walking down in know downtown three blocks and I’d be back in two hours. Like, you know, we all deserve a little alone time, you know?
And to hang out with our friends. That’s a very healthy thing to do. But that was the coercive control. Could I point to a time that he said, you are not allowed to go out with your friends? No, I couldn’t. Right. But, but [00:09:00] now I understand the slow insidious control, you know, that was happening and the modalities, he used to exact that control.
Zach: And it seems like in a lot of cases those things ramp up, especially at the point when somebody actually leaves, that’s when it reaches a whole new level or, or before that. Uh, I mean that’s, that’s when it, and, and maybe that’s a good segue into, maybe you could talk about. Some of the people that reach out to you for consulting or, or stories you hear about?
I think, I think a lot of people have a hard time understanding some of the, how common this stuff is and, uh, and just how bad it is. Maybe you could talk a little bit about some of the stories of clients you’ve had or, or, or people you’ve consulted for.
Jackie: Sure. Uh, you know, it really runs the entire gamut of, I’ve had clients that have endured a lot of physical abuse, um, but they’re still dealing with a court system that says that that’s a, it’s ignorant.
I. On domestic violence, and [00:10:00] b, it’s willing, willful ignorance. We don’t want to deal with it, in other words. Um, so they will say things like, well, he may have been hitting you, but he wasn’t hitting the kids. So he can have 50 50 or she can, you know, and it happens both ways. You know, she may have been doing these awful things, um, but she wasn’t doing them to the kids.
And I, I personally believe if you’re abusing. The parent of your children, you’re abusing your children. How are your children supposed to function healthily and it it, you know, have a healthy mental health? When they know, even if it’s instinctual and they haven’t witnessed it, they instinctually know that one of their parents is abusing the other parent.
It’s, it’s abuse by proxy. It just is. There’s, there’s no argument for it. But in the family court system, again, if you have a pulse, you’re a good parent. So yes, that parent gets the children. And how terrifying is that? Because sometimes the, you know, the, the one child becomes the new target. In your absence, [00:11:00] um, you know, and then you watch the other dynamics play out where there’s a scapegoat and a golden child and you see them pitting the children against each other.
And so you’ve worked so hard to have your children have this wonderful lifelong friendship and sibling relationship because, you know, you know, once you’re gone, that’s all they’re gonna have in the world, you know? And you, that was for me. I really want my kids to be close. I want them to be able to talk about anything and rely on each other.
And I saw dynamics at play where a wedge was trying to be driven between the two of ’em, um, by making one scapegoat and one a golden child. And so there’s so many dynamics, um, that I see that my clients come to me with, even though that was an example of I gave myself, they’ll be dealing with those kinds of things.
They’ll be dealing with the, um, we had $10 million in the bank when I filed for bankruptcy, and he has stopped all the money. Blocked it off and, and no one’s doing anything. I’ve already paid my attorney $25,000 and nothing’s happened yet. I hear that story all the time, like, how can [00:12:00] this be technically?
Is he allowed or is she allowed to block all the money? No, they’re not. But by the time it gets in front of a judge and you have a hearing and you jump through all the hoops of the one attorney’s supposed to ask the other attorney nicely, but then your attorney needs a $20,000 retainer and now they need another 10,000 by the time you get there.
Where you get to tell on them or her, you know, to somebody who matters, who can actually make a court order, a lot of time can pass. Mm-hmm. And you can spend a lot of money. And so we, I spend a lot of time strategizing with clients on how do we get from A to B, the, you know, the quickest. It’s not gonna be easy, there’s gonna be a lot of potholes.
How do we save the most money? What are some tips and tricks that we can come up with? You know, and, um, so again, I’ve seen everything from physical abuse, cops being called, you know, restraining orders
Zach: to devices, uh, being stolen and spied on that, that kinda stuff. Yeah.
Jackie: Oh, absolutely. I, my daughter found a military grade [00:13:00] GPS tracker in my car.
I. Um, you know, and I was just like, what? So that, you know, and yes, laptops being stolen and Yeah, absolutely. P phones being stolen and Oh, ob
Zach: obsessively, uh, contacting every, you know, all the contacts that people know to try to ruin the other person’s reputation, that kind of thing.
Jackie: Absolutely. So one of the spokes on the abuse wheel is this, you know, the smear campaigns.
Mm-hmm. And the reasons for that are a, you know, it helps them control the narrative. Um, b it. It helps it isolate you If they can get everyone to be thinking against you and see, it’s to just show you that they can. Yeah. And it’s very scary. But the, the interesting thing about the smear campaigns is I.
Most of my clients will find, and I found they started much earlier in the relationship and you didn’t even know about it. So it was a, a comment behind your back when you’re out with friends, like, oh, she’s got really drunk again. You know, or, or you know when that never happens, or, oh, [00:14:00] you know, when they’ve been feeding you wine all night and you’re like, oh mom, look at my husband or wife being so nice.
Keeps up and getting me drinks. Alright, sure. I’ll have another one. God, they never act like this. This is great. Well, it’s intentional. To, you know, so you get a little more drunk than usual, and then they look over at their friend and they’re like, oh God, this is what I deal with all the time. So it’s, you know, it’s, but it’s mind blowing Yeah.
To think someone’s been doing that.
Zach: Yeah. Well that’s, that
Jackie: the relationship, let alone after
Zach: that is really the, you know, the, it is really mind blowing. Like some of this stuff, I mean, listening to the stories on your podcast or the, you know, the people I know, uh, it is pretty mind blowing in terms of like.
This is really cr like, it’s really hard to wrap your mind around like, you know, in, in, in the same way that a lot of personality disorders are. It’s really hard to wrap your mind around, well why would they do this and why would they do this over years? These are people that are the only people, the main people in their life, and that’s how they treat them.
You [00:15:00] know, it’s, it’s really, it is really hard to, to wrap your mind around, I think. I think that’s actually getting into, you know, why sometimes these people. Can get away with this or convince other people that they’re, that they have valid points because it is so hard to believe some of this stuff, right?
It’s like, you know, you, you’d hear somebody say this, my ex or my current husband has done all these crazy things to me. And you know, at some level I think a lot of people who have, who don’t know about these things are thinking like. That that sounds completely wacky. Can that really be true? You know, and so they’re thinking like, there’s gotta be more to this story here, right?
I think that’s what accounts for some of the power some of these people have maybe in court or even just talking to other people. But I’m curious what you, what you think about that.
Jackie: Absolutely. One thing I see, one tactic is that they will create a story that’s so outrageous. It has to be true. And, you know, and no matter how much, the more you defend yourself, the more [00:16:00] guilty you look at it.
And, but so I, I’ve seen that happen. Well, they’re just come up with something that’s just so, like, you know, I didn’t tell anybody about this, but this is what was going on. And you’re just like, wait, what? Um, just completely outta left field. So there’s that. And then there is, you know, some of the more subtle manipulations.
But I, again, going back to the mind blowing, most of our brains don’t work like this. We don’t have this inherent, just really instinctual ability to manipulate. All the time. And they,
Zach: and desire. And desire to constantly, constantly
Jackie: manipulate it would be exhausting. Oh, I know. That’s what strikes me for
Zach: It would, yes.
It seems exhausting. I can’t even imagine, you know, living like that Yeah. Would seem
Jackie: exhausting. But it’s instinctual. They, they, they just have, they see these openings and that is why I believe, and again, I’m, I’m not a PhD, but I. Believe that that is why. Um, and I’ve had this described to me this way, like in the diagnostic, you know, [00:17:00] manual where they, they identify personality disorders, which narcissism falls under one of them, but the cluster B personality disorders, these individuals basically wake up every day and decide to behave this way.
They do not have a mental illness. It’s not, you know, so there’s not, a psychiatrist isn’t necessarily gonna be able to prescribe a medication like for schizophrenia to make it better. These are disordered individuals, but the reason they can stick them in a diagnostic manual is because they all displace similar behaviors.
Right. That’s the crazy thing. Yeah. Yeah. So it looks like they’re all following the same script, even though they’ve never met each other. They’re not related. They didn’t grow up in the same family. They all use similar tactics. So it is a personality disorder, um, but it’s not a mental illness and it’s a, it’s an interesting nuance to sort of consider.
Zach: Yeah, I mean it’s, I think there’s a lot of nuance there. ’cause it’s like, I think it’s some level, these [00:18:00] people really can’t control it. Like they, you know, it’s, and in many cases it’s been instilled in them in some way since they were. Kids even. But I think there is something there, like I think the, the main thing we can say is like, if you don’t want to get help, you’re not gonna get help.
And these people. Do not want to get help. Like, you know,
Jackie: they, they do not wanna get help. And, and it, that is a really good point because, and I dunno if you’ve heard of Dr. Peter Salerno, but he has a book called The Nature and Nurture of Narcissism. And he does talk about how there are a lot of clinical studies that you can have two children, you can pop one out that, you know, uh, it’s just kind, loving.
Empathetic and the other one will come out with kind of predisposition to have some of these traits. So, so he does see a nature side of that. Um, but you’re right, they don’t want help. They don’t get help, they don’t get better usually. Um, they don’t improve. And so it’s. It’s, and, and you had mentioned something too in your writing about just this super fragile ego, you know, and they, they have to [00:19:00] just sort of protect that at all costs.
So they can cannot take blame for anything. It’s, you rarely ever hear the word, I’m sorry. And if you do, it’s a manipulation to get something.
Zach: Yeah. And I think, yeah, to talk to you more about, I wanna talk to you more about that because it’s like, to me, and obviously I’m not the only person who thinks this, but.
It really seems like the fact that these people will never self-examine the fact that they will never say, I’m sorry, the fact that they will never admit blame, and they so often project everything on everyone else. I mean, I think that’s key to understanding their fragility because at some level they find it so hard to self-examine something that everybody, you know, most of us find easy to do.
For whatever reason, you know, nature, nurture combination. They, they find it so hard to be honest with themselves and to self examine and they have some instinctual desire to always be casting all the blame on everyone else and, and seeing everyone else’s enemies. But I think that’s, you know, I’m curious if you have any [00:20:00] thoughts.
I know neither of us are psychologists. Sure. With all your experience, I’m sure you’ve thought a lot about what drives, you know, the, these kinds of behaviors.
Jackie: Yeah, it’s, and you’re absolutely right, the victim. Mentality. And, and, and that’s the, you know, usually the, at the crux of, say the smear campaigns or you know, when you read these declarations that they write for court in family court, I mean everything is victim, victim, victim.
In fact, I often will tell clients like, Hey, look. They’ll usually get some early wins in family court because the judge is like, whoa. You know, they’re writing all these outrageous things in their declarations and they’re the victim. They’re the victim. Um, it’s a chip away mentality in family court. It is a or, or just when you’re dealing with these folks in general, even if court’s gone, um, and you’re in the aftermath dealing with co-parenting or whatnot, but it is this chip away mentality.
It’s a marathon. Hold on tight. Stay the course. I will often say to, um, you know, point out [00:21:00] behaviors. Obviously we never label anyone because most of us aren’t qualified to do that, but just point out concerning behaviors and don’t play the victim. It’s okay to point out things that they’re doing, but eventually.
Though that will start to be really contrasted, like whether it’s in your declarations or things that are happening in the court system, it will start to become apparent like, wow, this person, it’s always, always poor me. And they, they’re all doing it to me and they’re all, you know, and it, it will eventually.
Come to light. But it’s very scary in the beginning because they do get early wins in the family court system because they, they come out just, they come outta the gate, come out swinging, just swinging. I mean, and you’re like, whoa, I just thought we could talk about this and go to mediation and maybe work it out, you know?
And, and next thing you know, you know, you’re being accused of all these outrageous things. But yeah, the victim, oh, the victim card
Zach: is heavily played and that’s part of the mind blowing nature of it is like the never admitting any fault is kind of like the mind [00:22:00] blowing thing too. ’cause it’s like. It’s just, I think for most of us, it’s, it’s just such a, a minor thing to admit like, Hey, maybe I played a role in this.
Maybe I did something wrong. You know? But for people that just are completely, they cannot do that. They, they, they’re not capable of that. It, it, it is so painful for them to even think that other people. You know, might be that, that, that they themselves, maybe, or other people are, are seeing them in a negative light is, is so painful that for them, they just combat it, you know?
Uh, tooth and nail or whatever. Yeah,
Jackie: absolutely. They, yeah, they, they, they need everyone on their side. Um, it’s just a, um, gosh, there was something that I was gonna say. Darn it. Uh, it’s a horrible coping me mechanism. It is. Oh, what I was going to say is in two, they know your buttons. I mean, part of, early on in the relationship, what they were doing, um, was.
Information gathering. So what felt like, oh my gosh, they ask a lot of questions [00:23:00] about me and they really want to know a lot about me. And it’s very scary. ’cause you go out to try to date again and you’re like, how do I discern between someone who’s just trying to get to know me and someone who’s information gathering?
Yeah. Why do they wanna know that? Yeah. Um, but they are, they have minds like still traps when it comes to information about you so that they can pull it up later and use it against you. And so. There. I always say, you know, look for the themes that they pick. Like I, I bet you could pick a theme that this person constantly said about you.
Um, mine before I got divorced was like, I can’t handle anything. I’m stupid. Like, I can’t even handle like getting the kids to the right birthday parties on time. I can’t, how come I don’t have that date? Right. How do I have that thing wrong? I’m thinking, like I said, it was a super high functioning adult before I met you.
Like. How could this be true? But it was a narrative that kept being beaten to my head over time, and I started to adopt that narrative myself. Um, and then post, um, you know, separation and after the divorce had gone on so long, the one button [00:24:00] he knew would get me is he would say, you spent the kids’ college.
You know my, on that divorce, you’re the one that drug it out. You’re the one. I mean, oh my God, I was not the one that drug it out.
Zach: Right? And
Jackie: even I have to, I have to fight the temptation right now. Not to tell the whole story to defend myself, but it was, he, they know what button to push that’s really gonna get to you.
And so. Just sort of trying to be aware that that’s what’s happening. That’s the dynamic that’s playing and not fall for it is a really big hill to sort of climb and overcome. But it’s a really important one if you can do it. If you could stop and breathe and not react. Mm. And just be like, okay, they’re playing that cart again because they know they’re gonna get mileage out of it.
And I’m gonna start spinning right now. Right. If you can sort of shut that down in any way, shape or form by taking a breath, not responding, changing your response, shortening your response to not give them the fuel they’re [00:25:00] looking for. Right. I always give that advice ’cause they know exactly what they’re doing and what buttons to put, buttons to push.
Zach: And as you say on your podcast, as you and others say. Trying to not be over reactive in the legal and custody setting is very important too, because people will often perceive that in and wrong in, in, uh, ways that don’t help you. So you, it pays to be calm and not be reactive and you know, and how you respond.
Yeah.
Jackie: Yeah. It really does. And I’ll even say like, visually look at your messages to each other. If there’s a ranting for seven paragraphs. And then you respond for two, and then they ran for seven more paragraphs and you respond for two. Just on visual. If I’m a judge that’s not reading all this, I’m kind of flipping through it.
I’m already like, just visually like, okay, that’s, you know, I see what’s going on here. He’s crazy, but I see what’s going on here. Yeah. Like, like, oh my God, this is, this person’s a lot. Yeah. At the very minimum, this person’s a lot. So I’m like, you know, just start with that.
Zach: I think another, uh.
Counterintuitive weird thing [00:26:00] about these kind of dynamics is, you know, some of these people will seem like, you’d be like, well, they clearly, they treat their spouse this way. They clearly hate their spouse. And they may even sometimes say like, you know, I don’t want to be with you, and these kinds of things.
And on the surface they hate them, but on the, on another level, they really need them. Like they need that control, like. The control of another person is what gives them some sense of like existential stability or something. So when, when, you know, and I’ve heard this, you know, from, from people, from stories where you know that the, the abused person leaves and, and is surprised that the person fights so hard to control them and or keep them, or, you know, try to control the situation and not let them go.
And it’s, but it’s like at some level. They really wanted that, uh, that, that, that relationship as toxic as it was, was what gave them major stability in their life for, for a lot of these people, it seems, seems like to me, [00:27:00] but I’m curious if you have any thoughts on that.
Jackie: Yeah, absolutely. It’s, it is about control and it’s almost like I work so hard to get you into this, you know, submissive shell of yourself, state, how dare you leave?
Or, you know, or, or even if I treated you so badly and told you to get out, you weren’t really supposed to leave, you know, because I control you. And it is quite literally their fuel, their oxygen. That’s how I look at it. And so by. When you leave, you, they’re, they’ve lost their oxygen.
Zach: Is that, is that, is that when you say that’s their, this might be going too far, but is that, is this like their version of love for these people?
Like that’s the only kind of love they, they might be able to know. Do you think? I.
Jackie: Uh, I guess, yeah, if we wanna try to label it that, you know, I have a hard time, I mean, putting the word on it, but Yeah, no, it’s in, in their minds
Zach: though. And, and it’s,
Jackie: yeah. Let me put it this way. It’s the way they have a relationship.
Yes. Yeah. So, so what we thought was love, you know, we got into this person and we maybe [00:28:00] married them or whatever, you know, we thought we were committed for life, or for at least for a very long time. Yeah, we would call that we did that because of love and theirs is just for control
Zach: and it’s not love.
Yeah. Don’t get me wrong, but it’s like it might be the only way that they can like connect to other person, at least how the way they are now. Yeah.
Jackie: It’s the only way they can connect to the other person. And the other thing that I say is, it’s interesting in these relationships, they very often pick.
Intelligent, attractive, articulate, you know, uh, creative types that A, it makes them look good. Mm-hmm. And BI say a lot of ’em, maybe not all of them, but a lot of them, it helps make them acceptable to society, um, where they wouldn’t have been on that level on their own. Because you will hear often like, oh my God, he was so nicer.
She was so nice. And then, yeah, I like their spouse. They’re okay, but, but they wouldn’t have been, you know, invited all these places or done, you know, it’s, it’s really one, you know. Wherever they’re being invited eventually. It’s usually ’cause the nice, the nice part of the mm-hmm. Of, you know, of the couple, but [00:29:00] they also are very good at putting on the mask.
Zach: Right, right. So a lot of them are very good at acting and, and manipulating and putting on an act. Yeah. Uhhuh. Mm-hmm. Uh, so that
Jackie: if you do leave you, you, you know, everyone’s like, oh, I’m so surprised. He or she was charming, so nice, so I don’t get it. Yeah,
Zach: yeah. But the, uh, it’s complicated. One thing I thought was a practical tip in one of your podcasts was talking about how, because you know, the words, uh, the, the word narcissism is so overused these days.
Like, you have so many people that will just like, toss it around at the drop of a hat. Like, they don’t like something, somebody does their work and they’re like, they’re a narcissist. You know? But I think, um, you know, learning about. Real, very narcissistic people will, uh, maybe help you not use that word.
Uh, a, a as, as loosely as some people do. But the practical tip though, in one of your episodes was, uh. Talking about, uh, how when it comes to talking in, in legal custody settings, you know, it’s good to avoid that word. [00:30:00] I think somebody said to avoid the word abuse too, and just describe what the people are like.
Describe what their behaviors and actions were like, and so to avoid the perception that you’re trying to like label them and, and manipulate other people’s perceptions basically.
Jackie: Right. Absolutely. It’s, uh, it’s definitely a rule in court that, that we don’t label anyone. And yes, you describe the behaviors, uh, and I know in one episode you’re right, that was about custody evaluations.
Um, the guest had whi, which has been really valuable for a lot of my clients is, is explaining the progression of things. So when we started out, um. You know, this person is so sweet, so charming, um, you know, really outgoing, really good at their job, really da, da da. So describe all the things that a judge or an evaluator or somebody else is going to see when they meet them, because that’s the face the mask they’re going to have on.
And then they’ll say like, oh, yes. Right? That’s what I see. They’re, you know, they’re, they’re funny, they’re hilarious. Like they’re, they’re really good at cracking jokes. They put me at ease when I’m with them. And then I [00:31:00] was really saddened and surprised when. All of a sudden, you know, I wasn’t allowed to go out with my friends and, um, the, you know, I started calling me really, really bad names in front of the children, um, through a vase at my head once and in, you know, and describing the behavior.
So you don’t have to say abuse and you don’t have to say. Narcissist or you know, how, you know, you’re saying I was being controlled, I was being isolated. There were physical, you know, times that they were physical. Um, there are times that they’re, you know, they’re doing things in front of the kids that is not good.
Not good parenting, not healthy, not safe. So you’re just able, you’re set the stage and then you’re able to describe all those behaviors. Without throwing out any labels. Now I do have to say in the comfort of our own home, talking with our friends, listening to a podcast, I think labels are great. I think it’s feels good to read about something that you’re experiencing and then have someone give it a name.
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And I know a doctor Diverso Romney is, is really big on that and she [00:32:00] has a book. Um, it’s not you. And I completely agree with her. Like I remember it was 2:00 AM when I stumbled on Tina Sweeten’s book. Um, and she described everything in my marriage is, is what she had went through. And then she, you know, said that he, I think, believed her ex was officially diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder.
But I remember just. Feeling this relief, like, oh, this is a thing, this me. Yeah, there’s all the patterns,
Zach: there’s all the behaviors. Here’s the
Jackie: pattern. Somebody else went through this and the, and there’s a name for it. So I think it’s very therapeutic and validating to be able to study it and read it and understand what the names are.
But then, yep. When you’re in the family court system or is anywhere that don’t, yeah, don’t, don’t diagnose it. Don’t use it yourself. Describe the behaviors that’s gonna, what’s gonna get you. Mm-hmm. Um, you know what you need.
Zach: Yeah. I’m curious if you have any stories about, or observations about projection, because it’s such a cliche that narcissists, uh, narcissistic personalities [00:33:00] will project things about themselves on other people.
It’s almost like I hear that and, and in a similar way as people too, sometimes too loosely. Throw the narcissism label around. I also hear people say, too often say, uh oh, they’re projecting where I’m like, um, I don’t think they’re projecting, but it, but it is really a thing. And when you actually see some of these things close up, like a specific, uh, you know, case I was telling you about in other many other cases, there, there is this thing or a very real projection thing where the things that are, that they’ve done wrong, they will.
Accuse the other person of, they’ll accuse other people of like, you know, say it’s drinking or drugs. The other, if they have a problem, they’ll accuse the other person of having that problem. If they, if they’ve had many affairs, they’ll accuse the other person of having many affairs and at, and at some level it’s like, it’s not, it seems it just a, not even a, a strategy.
It’s, it’s a, it’s a genuine, [00:34:00] like I really. At some level, some of these people really do believe these things in a, in an obsessive, obsessive way. The more, the more obsessive ones. But there is this thing that, that happens with this projecting. But I’m curious if you’ve heard many stories or, or do you have any observations about that?
Jackie: Yeah, no, it. It does happen all the time. I see what you’re saying. I mean, I think a, sometimes they use it as a strategy. If I beat them to the punch, you know, and say it first, then when they say it about me, it’d be like, oh, well, well great. So you’re right. Right. I’m doing it too. So I think in, in lots of times in the court system, we’ll seem ’em try to beat you to the punch by accusing you of at first.
Um. Two, it’s just, it’s a level of gaslighting that will absolutely make you crazy. So it is a very useful tool to gaslight you, to get you to react and then see I. Right. See, I told, so I, I believe it’s a, it’s a heavily used strategy in that manner, and then I think you’re absolutely right [00:35:00] that some of them, like, I’ll take the cheating for instance.
They do it so often and they’re so promiscuous, and whether they’ve lied to themselves to make themselves feel better or they, they have always believed it or what they’re like, everybody. Right. That’s the, everybody’s, everyone’s doing it cheating. Like there, there’s no such thing as a marriage that doesn’t, there’s no such thing as a guide that hasn’t, there’s no such thing, and I have seen that play out before too.
And I’m like, no, I, they really believe it. Yeah. They really believe that literally every neighbor is doing each other. Mm-hmm. And every like. They actually believe it. They actually believe that if I go take tennis lessons, that I will be sleeping with the tennis instructor. They believe it. Mm-hmm. And so I, I, you know, I think both can be true.
Yeah. It’s a spectrum. Spectrum. It’s, it’s to, it’s a spectrum. That’s what I was gonna say. It’s a strategy sometimes, and sometimes it’s complete delusion.
Zach: And I think it could be, yeah. It’s, and it’s, it can be hard to tell which is, which is in some of these cases, yeah. Hard to tell, which is, which I think in some cases they might not even really know.
Like they might be like. I, I’m [00:36:00] paranoid that everyone is doing these things against me. Yeah. And I want it to be true, so I’ll say it and believe it. Right. There’s, I think, I think especially for the less functional or the, the more, the less mentally well examples.
Jackie: Yeah.
Zach: There is this case. I mean, ’cause there’s studies that show that really pathologically narcissistic people have a hard time with memory.
They have a hard time, you know, distinguishing. Past reality from, from, from fiction that they’ve created. Like that’s a real Yeah. Thing. And I think at some level some of these people just want to believe something so much. They basically believe it. You know, they, they. They just, I will it into exist existence.
Jackie: The false narrative is, is safer for whatever reason. It’s, it’s, it’s safer to my, you know, my, my, the shell of false self that I’ve built to think that you’re cheating to, it’s safer to, um, yeah. Whatever the reason is. I, I completely agree. Yeah. It’s a spectrum, but, um, it, yeah, yeah, either way it’s, it’s just, it’s crazy making you write for the other person [00:37:00] on the other end.
Well, that’s why your,
Zach: that’s why your podcast is aptly named.
Jackie: Yeah, it, it really is. Like I, I had a friend that I was in a book club with at the time, and she was so excited I was doing this. I wake up one morning to a text on my phone and she, I think it was a text or an email, and she’d taken a screenshot of, she’d like been up for hours, scribbling all these possible podcast names, and they were like in the corner and then written this way, written that way in circles around ’em, and this one underlined and that one.
I just, this one stuck out. She’s the one that named it. And I’m like, oh my God, this is absolutely brilliant. And I always get, I always get comments about it. So I have to give a credit, credit to my friend. And
Zach: it’s, it’s called, uh, what was it out of, out of Crazy Town? Was it Out of Crazy Town?
Jackie: Yeah.
Zach: Right.
Jackie: Yeah.
Zach: I didn’t actually send you this beforehand, but just something I was thinking about before we met. I, so something I’ve long thought about, more toxic people. Narcissistic or just toxic in general. It seems like a lot of them in my experience.
Uh, had, you know, had toxic, uh, parents or, or main parent than one main parent, the themselves, which led to them having some of those traits. And I think another factor there is I think some of those people, uh, some of the more toxic people never were able to examine the bad things that their parents did to them.
Parent or both parents, so that they kind of still put their. A parent that mistreated them on some sort of pedestal, which, which prevents them from ever [00:39:00] like examining the bad aspects of that relationship. And I think the healthier people are able to be like, oh, I didn’t like these things that this parent did.
Um, so I’m able to process it and examine it and not do those things myself maybe. But I think for a lot of the people that have the worst outcomes. In this area. I think a lot of them still at some level want to please their, you know, toxic parent. But it, this, this, you know, I’m not a psychologist, obviously this, this is just my own kind of working theory, but I’m curious if there’s anything in there.
Um, do you have any observations about that? And no problem if not.
Jackie: Yeah, no. It’s, my, my experience is basically your experience. Um, that is that. Uh, the people that I’ve dealt with in my life that probably have a personality disorder or cluster B personality disorder did have some pretty decent dysfunction going on, um, in their family.
And, and yeah, there’s like a, a, a parent dynamic there. Usually [00:40:00] that’s, um, you know, that just was really harmful for whatever reason. Or just, or just a really unhealthy bond or relationship or, you know, um, I did do a blog post on, um. You know, narcissistic men and their mothers, not because they’re all that way, but it happens enough that you can write a blog about it.
Right? And, um, it, there’s, you know, often some enmeshment, and again, I know we can’t just put a blanket, you know, label on all of this, but there’s definitely patterns that can be identified. And, but that at the same time, that’s also why I called out Dr. P um, Peter Sonos book, because. He does point out that there is a lot of, are there a lot of studies where, you know, there’s a, could be a genetic component and basically the argument is like, so if you know, you stick two kids in a family and they grow up very similar, you know, but one emerges with these extremely narcissistic traits and the other one’s, you know, a compassionate, empathic person.
How is that? You know? And so that’s why they’re kinda looking, you know, at some of the more genetic based studies, I [00:41:00] guess is the best way to say it. But by and large. Yeah, I, I mean, my experience is, your experience is that I, and I often will see like narcissistic family systems, you know, I’ll see a, I’ll see a, a mom and a sister and a brother, you know, or three brothers and a dad, you know, so it’s, and, and it.
I’m not qualified to examine what’s going on there, but right there you will. I did another blog called, did You Marry Into a Narcissistic Family? ’cause oh my gosh, sometimes they will grab hold of the sweet people pleaser, you know? Um, and I don’t mean to label all of us that way, but that’s what I was, and they’ll, the whole family will eat you alive,
Zach: right?
There’s, there’re gonna be dynamics of manipulation and, um. Yeah. Harassment, manipulation, boundary, boundary stepping, just people that have unhealthy ways of engaging and that, you know, we’re not gonna solve the nature nurture thing on this podcast. Right. But like those, those kinds of dynamics I.
Obviously not [00:42:00] everybody comes out of that, uh, extremely narcissistic, but those kinds of dynamics can make somebody, you know, start seeing those things as like, oh, well this is just how you behave with people.
Jackie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, why, you know, why does one person grow up in a really dysfunctional family and think to themself, I’m never gonna do that to my kids.
Right. I’m going to be the, you know, I’m gonna do way better than that, and then the other person repeats it. Exactly. Yeah. It’s hard to say, but
Zach: yeah. I think there’s, I think there’s like pathways you can go down, like, you know, if we, if we completely remove the. The nature aspect, you know, not, not to say it’s not true, but I do think there’s like pathways that it’s kinda like chaos theory.
Like you start dripping down one side of the mountain or another and like yeah, the, the, the, the personality traits start compounding and such, so, you know, that’s, that’s just how I think of it in terms of like, it’s, it start going down one path and, um, I do too. I think that’s, it’s hard to, and, and if you start doing, I think it in general, if you start behaving in bad.
Unhealthy ways [00:43:00] you continually start to justify those things, which has an impact on your current personality and so on and so on. So you, you continually kind of like can spiral down to worse behaviors because you’re for sure it’s a
Jackie: dark hole that it’s very difficult to climb out from. And even what, what you were saying something earlier that made it come to mind often there’s a huge component of lying among these, you know, disordered individuals.
And you’re right, they. And I think that that disengagement from reality and what’s going on is because they truly lie so much they can’t remember their lies. And then Right. It, it’s not even about remembering the lies anymore. It’s just I’m gonna make up the reality wherever I am, in front of whoever I’m standing in front of, and I am going to believe it.
Yeah. Because that’s been my pattern for so long. Whatever comes outta my mouth is the reality. Yeah. And I, I don’t care if it is raining right now, I’m gonna tell you it’s not. Yeah.
Zach: Yeah. Yeah. It’s like, it is really the, the tangled web wee weave thing where it’s like you start constructing so many lies and deceptions around you.
At some level, it’s, you’re just living in a [00:44:00] web of, you know, unreality. Right. So you might as well just say, you know. And that if you’re in that spot, you know, just say whatever you want. Right?
Jackie: And you have to almost believe that you’re the smartest person in the room because you’ve, you’ve now become so manipulative and so able to twist people’s realities.
You become so good at it that you now start to believe that you are the smartest person in the room no matter where you go. ’cause I can convince them that the sky is purple and that it’s not raining when it is.
Zach: And even because I’ve done it before. And even when you fail at convincing them, you’ll just tell yourself, I’m still a genius.
’cause you know, you’re used to. Telling yourself whatever. I’ll still go home
Jackie: and tell myself that they, that they bought it and I’m a genius or, or they’re, or there are
Zach: morons for not believing it. Yeah. It’s like, uh, well this has been great, Jackie. I appreciate it. Is there anything else you’d like to add before we wrap up?
Jackie: You know, I just want folks out there that are going through these hard times to know that it, it does come to an end. I don’t wanna say it gets better because they get better because they don’t. But my big, [00:45:00] um, hill that I want to die on is that extract yourselves from them. Any way possible. So even if you’re going through the divorce, like minimize your contact.
It, you know, if you have to communicate, uh, you know, I have this joke, like if it, it was a paragraph. See if you can get it down to a sentence. If it’s a sentence, see if you can get it down to a word. If it’s a word, see if you can get it down to a thumbs up. Um, like the, any way that you can cut them off from access to you and attention from you is, and again, I know that that’s, there’s a million different scenarios, um, to talk through, but.
If, if at all, at all possible, do that because you are their supply and they need to be cut off from, from your attention, from using you as a supply and move on to another one.
Zach: Thanks. That’s great. Yeah. Uh, really appreciate you joining me and thanks for your efforts and work.
Jackie: Thank you so much for having me.
I really enjoyed it.