On this podcast, I sometimes explore nuance in the “behavior expert” domain. I’ve recently gotten curious about what value people say that they’ve received from “behavior expert” trainings and certifications. This is a talk with Gallia Winkler, a psychological coach and a behavioral student of Joe Navarro’s; she’s been certified in his Body Language Expert Program. I ask her about what drives her interest in nonverbal behavior, what value she believes she’s gotten from Navarro’s teachings, and how those teachings have helped her in her personal and professional life.
Episode links:
- YouTube (includes video) (coming soon)
- Apple Podcasts
- Spotify
TRANSCRIPT
(transcript is automatically generated and contains errors)
Zach Elwood: If you don’t mind me asking, how much did that course cost, the Navarro course?
Gallia: I guess it was about 4,000 euros.
Zach Elwood: Was that like a once a week kind of thing or, or was it a-
Gallia: No. I, I spent a lot of time there. Um-
Zach Elwood: Oh …
Gallia: sometimes six hours a day.
Zach Elwood: Oh, wow.
Gallia: Yeah. Uh, as I didn’t want just to read it and finish it, so I want to absorb it, you know? Hmm. It was, uh, valuable, it was also expensive, and it was worth every single cent.
Zach Elwood: That was a clip from a talk I had with Gallia Winkler. I got interested in talking to Gallia when I read a post of hers on LinkedIn praising Joe Navarro and expressing excitement about his most recent book Mastering Connections, which is approximately his 16th book, something in that range. I’ll read Gallia’s linkedin post:
Finally holding it in my hands.
The new book by my favourite person, Joe Navarro.
Not only because of what he knows, but because of the impact he has had on my life.
He taught me not just to see, but to observe.
He opened new horizons for me and showed me a completely different way of looking at people, communication, and the world around us. Through that, I discovered interests, strengths, and possibilities I might never have explored otherwise.
What I appreciate most is that he always encouraged growth. He never told me who to become. Instead, he encouraged me to keep learning, keep developing, and keep moving forward, with him or without him.
That is one of the reasons why I admire him so much. He truly lives what he teaches.
Muchas gracias, Joe, for continuing to share your knowledge and for inspiring so many of us.
I can’t wait to start reading.
So that was a post from Gallia praising the “behavior expert” Joe Navarro. Strong praise, obviously. This got me curious to talk to her, to find out what she has found so valuable from his books and training. As you heard a bit about, Gallia has spent many hours training under Joe Navarro and has received a certificate from him, so we’ll talk about what she’s learned and what practical impact such things have had in her life.
If you’ve listened to this podcast before, you might know that I am curious about the value people say they get from “behavior experts” like Joe Navarro and others in the “behavior expert” space. For example, why do some people say they find immense value in such books and trainings, while other people say that they find the information to be banal and basically “common sense”? I’m currently working on a book that will be titled Read People For Real, and I reached out to Gallia as part of research for that book, because I wanted to better understand what “behavior expert” fans are perceiving as valuable. I’ll avoid giving my own opinions in this episode and just let you listen to my guest say what she’s found valuable.
A note about editing: I’ve done basically no editing on this talk, just removing some of the longer pauses and some of the longer word repetitions, and also a spot where Gallia was having trouble remembering the word for something. So, basically, this is an unedited talk in terms of the content.
Also, just a note that there was an audio issue in there for Gallia’s audio, there were some cracklings and poppings in there, so apologies for that.
If you want to learn more about this podcast, go to behavior-podcast.com and check out episode compilations, transcripts, resources mentioned in the episodes, and more.
Okay, here’s the talk with Gallia.
Zach Elwood: Hi, Galia. Thanks for joining me.
Gallia: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
Zach Elwood: So maybe we could start with, uh, talking about, uh, you sharing some of the work that you’ve done that’s related to behavior and psychology, the work you do.
Gallia: Yes. Uh, well, everything started at the airport, Frankfurt Airport, uh, because, um, yes, I…
There are a lot of people, they come together from different nationalities, and the airport is a place where all the emotions are loaded, so from happiness to sadness to anger, um, being impatient, and so on. And I started asking myself a question. So because some interactions, they are, they were just com- uh, comfortable, were very nice, and some were very uncomfortable.
I said, “Uh, what is this about? So why do some people have this influence to, to, to make me, uh, feel this, this, this discomfort?” Um, yes, I had no answers for this, and this, this is why I started, yeah, reading and educating myself. And, um, yeah, this led me to the psychological, uh, field, where I, um, finished my, um…
During COVID, I had some time, and I f- uh, finished my training in, as a psychological counselor And, uh, yes, I found some answers, but I was not satisfied by them, so ’cause it was more about this. So it’s more the psychological part, and the other was the behavioral part. And, um, yeah, so this is, um, where, uh, here in Germany especially, they still work with, uh, NLP.
Hmm. And it’s was not very convincing for me, so ’cause, um, it’s, um, I don’t know, it’s, uh, it’s not backed in science, and it’s just based on observations, uh, which, uh, were, for example, if you have left-handed people, it doesn’t fit what they see. If you see upwards, uh, you look upward, and, uh, you’re thinking about the future, it’s…
And it’s not true. It’s not true. It’s more complicated, more complex than this. So that’s why I kept on looking for answers, and then I met Joe Navarro.
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: And I contacted him, and he told me he has a, um, course, uh, where he is explaining everything backed in science and so on. And he asked me if we can have a call.
I said, “Oh, well, yeah, of course.” Uh, I was very surprised, uh, that he took the time for this because it’s Joe Navarro, no? And I said, “Okay, yeah, um, I, I’m not sure if I… It’s, it’s COVID. I don’t have my, um, enough money for now.” And he said, “Yeah, well, I will be in, in, uh, Amsterdam if you wanna join us. Uh, then maybe we can meet.”
And there is what, uh, where everything happened. He convinced me with all his, uh, congruence. His, he, he practices what he preaches. He’s a person who gives you a real psychological comfort. It’s, it was amazing. It was… I, I never met a person like him before.
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: And everything, all the little, how can I say?
Everything matter- matters to him. The way he dresses, the way he moves, the way he talks, the speed, the pace, everything is, is congruent. It’s, it was, it was, uh, like yeah, I don’t know, like, uh, I never met someone like him before. Hmm. And this caused a big impression on me, so, uh, I did everything possible for, uh, joining his course, uh, for the nonverbal expert.
And yeah, then I told Joe, um, “Well, I, I, I love this, but here in Germany, uh, German people are very special and, um, they don’t, uh, acknowledge, um, a certificate. They don’t acknowledge n- nothing which is not, um, um, academic.”
Zach Elwood: And- Oh, so you, you had gotten a certificate from attending that, uh, course with Joe?
Gallia: Yeah. It was nine months. It was like a, a boot camp.
Zach Elwood: Oh, it lasted nine, nine months?
Gallia: Yeah. It was not just like a course you do in a few- It was o- it was
Zach Elwood: online, or…?
Gallia: Yes, yes.
Zach Elwood: Oh, okay. Yeah.
Gallia: And, um, it was really a boot camp for me, so ’cause he explained everything from the beginning and the science behind the, our behaviors.
For example, why we do a shoulder shrug, uh, how is it connected to our brain. Uh, for example, when we were, uh, living with predators, um, with felines, um, when they, um, bite you, they bite you here in the neck. That’s why we used to protect the neck. So this is really wired in our, um, brain, uh, from Hundreds of year ago.
Yeah. And, uh, he explained so many things. It was like a puzzle I always had, and he gave me the pieces for forming, uh, the big picture. Mm. And he didn’t just give me the pieces, he also taught me how to look for the pieces and where to look for.
Zach Elwood: Mm.
Gallia: And this was very, very interesting for me. It’s like he opened new, uh, dimension-
Zach Elwood: Mm
Gallia: to see the world. I see the world now in a d- through a different lens.
Zach Elwood: Mm.
Gallia: And it’s … It was like, wow, I never thought I had the skills for this, and it’s actually so easy and still so complicated b- because you need awareness for this. Mm. You need to be aware. He always, um, says, “Stop seeing, start observing.”
Zach Elwood: Mm.
Gallia: Uh, “Stop hearing, start listening.” So, and there is a huge difference, um, and this is awareness itself. So living in the present moment, what do you see, and be curious why. And also the things you omit, they also matters. Context matters.
Zach Elwood: Mm.
Gallia: There are no absolutes. You always see … have to see the context, and also be aware about your own non-verbals because they, uh, like Cliff Lensley say, now where I’m studying, uh, my MSC, he says, uh, your own, your own behavior can contaminate the interaction, so if you’re not aware of it.
So, and this is part, also part of the context, and this gave me a lot of, uh, answers I were looking for, uh, which I never thought- reaching them or, or, or, or being able to catch them in, in such a clear way. And yeah, this is what I became so passionate about, non-verbals. And Joe was a big influence, and not j- just because of what he taught, uh, but because he is the person who displays everything, the congruence.
And not just only when he is, uh, with people surrounding him, also when nobody is looking at him. He stays stable and he displays the same things. He’s approachable. He is, um… He also showed me that professionalism and humanity are not o- opposites. So you can be professional and you can be approachable.
You can be a, still a human being. You can still, uh, be able to feel other people comfortable. And he als- always says it’s non-verbals and all the behavioral analysis, it’s all about comfort and discomfort It’s all about. Mm. It sounds easy, but it’s, it’s not. Mm-hmm. There is a lot, uh, around the topic. Mm. But it’s- Mm-hmm
yeah, it’s about displaying this, uh, comfort, and then the reciprocity principle comes. So if you feel s- let someone feel comfortable, they will be grateful. They w- and this gratefulness will feel you comfortable as well.
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: So, uh, and this is what I really appreciate from Joe, and he always encouraged me to, uh, keep on learning.
He says, “This is a field you never stop learning. There is a lot to learn about.” And he also encouraged me to, um, to go for the MSC.
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: So even without him, so it’s not something he can provide me because, uh, he only has well, only, uh, his academy and, uh, and here in Germany, only the, um, this title of an MSC, it’s that one that counts.
Mm. And, uh, only the academic, uh, field is, uh, worth, uh, to be, uh, acknowledged. They are very strict here in Germany. Hmm. And that’s why I said, “Yeah, Galia, do that now or never.”
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: And yes- Mm-hmm … here I am.
Zach Elwood: Um, I was curious i- if you’d care to share, how long did you… At the airport, were you doing something that involved, like, reading people in some way?
Was it security-related, or was it not related to that at all?
Gallia: No, but reading people is, uh, essential. It’s, uh… Because, um, you have… Not everybody speaks Engl- English. I speak four languages, but it’s not enough, you know? So some people are, uh, you also have to be aware about the idiosyncratic behaviors. For example, don’t to misinterpret them.
Uh, Asian people behave different than, uh, Western people, or, uh… And he also taught me not to take it personally, but to be curious what is behind the reason why they are, um- reacting like they do. Hmm. ‘Cause also she taught me
the, the difference be- be, uh, between reaction and a response.
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: Reaction is something what triggers you, and, um, it’s suddenly. And a response is thoughtful. So they can be reactive, but I can be responsive. Hmm. So by not taking it personally. Yeah.
Zach Elwood: If you don’t mind, if you don’t mind me asking, um, what was it you were doing at the airport, and are you still doing that now, or have you moved away from the-
Gallia: No, no
the airport? I moved away. I moved away.
Zach Elwood: Oh.
Gallia: Uh, yeah. Um, I was in the duty frees, in the duty-free shops.
Zach Elwood: Oh, okay.
Gallia: Yeah.
Zach Elwood: Gotcha.
Gallia: Yeah. That’s where everybody comes in when
Zach Elwood: And that, and that was what made you curious about the human behavior, seeing how, how everybody-
Gallia: Yeah …
Zach Elwood: beha- yeah. Um, and I’m curious now, you know, what, uh, when it comes to You know, whether it, whether it’s the, um, counseling or personal life or professional life, what are, uh, what are some examples that come to mind for, um, you know, how the, the learning about behavior has, has helped you in your i- in, in personal, uh, or professional experiences?
Do you have any stories?
Gallia: Yes. It helps me every day, actually. For example, now I’m working, um, with a doctor who is, uh, doing some, uh, treatments for, uh, dementia patients and their families. And being aware of non-verbals makes the rapport so much easier. Also for, uh, people with dementia c- ’cause they are sometimes they know you, sometimes they forget you, sometimes they are– they change their moods very quickly.
And you have to be able to adapt to them, also to their relatives, and, uh, giving, displaying this comfort so that they are, they, they… I’m aware of this. And the relatives are very thankful that, that I see this before it happens. When I see is, uh, the person, uh, ’cause I, I have a device where I put the… It’s called TPS, transcranial, uh, pulse, um, whatever.
Um, yeah. And, uh, sometimes because of the noise, they become, uh, nervous. Stressed. Uh, yes, stressed, nervous. And I say, “Ah, shall I pause a little bit? Do you like to drink something? Um, can we continue?” So it’s, it doesn’t take a long time. And, uh, they are very grateful to that, that, that I see those little cues-
Zach Elwood: Hmm
Gallia: uh, which can prevent the people to distress Uh, which is a very, very sensitive topic.
Zach Elwood: So you’re say- you’re saying being more aware of how, uh, of how their behavior indicates them being stressed out helps you be more in tune with that and be more caring for them and set them at ease more basically?
Gallia: Yeah, definitely.
Definitely. Mm. And not just there. For example, you’re in a supermarket and you see the cashier is frustrated, uh, because people are rude or were rude, I don’t know. If you go to the supermarket and you say, instead of saying, “Yeah, thank you,” or, “Have a good day,” and you say, “Yeah, I wish you nice customers.”
Zach Elwood: Mm-hmm.
Gallia: They look upwards and they, they smile. So like they feel understood, they feel seen. Mm-hmm. They feel like you’re understanding their troubles, their frustration. And, uh, sometimes I get, I don’t know, um, chewing gum for free or whatever. Uh, but it’s not about gain some- getting something for free or influencing the person to give me something.
It, it’s about, uh, feeling, letting them feel comfortable. And-
Zach Elwood: Better c- better connection with
Gallia: people and, yeah. Yes. Definitely. Definitely. It’s, it’s, it, it’s so enriching. It’s, it- Mm-hmm … lets, lets you feel good. People are more open to you, are open to listening to you, what you’re Uh, saying and they are very inter- it’s, it’s a genuine interest on you.
Zach Elwood: Mm-hmm.
Gallia: And yeah, this is, uh, what it taught me and it works. Mm. It really works. You should try it just once and you will see the difference how people react.
Zach Elwood: In some conversations for the podcast, some people have said that the reason they like, uh, studying the non-verbal behavior stuff is because it allows them to connect better with other people, like you’re saying.
Um- Yeah … I’m curious, do you, do you feel like before you studied the behavior, do you feel like you were not that great at that stuff? Like, you weren’t tu- you just weren’t tuned into, like, the way those kind of, like, signs of discomfort and things like that? Or, or were you like- Yes … or were you a bit tuned into them but not as much as you are now?
Gallia: Uh, yeah. Yes. Yes, definitely. I, I thought always, “Okay, this is a nasty guy.” You know, like, like, like, the biases you have. But because you see them from far away after 20 years, you know he is tense, he’s clenching his fist, he is, his masseter muscle is, is, is tense, and you know he won’t be nice. Okay? Mm-hmm. And then you’re prepared.
So, okay, how, how do I react? Not to how do I response. How do I react to this? Shall I hide or shall I ask for, uh, asking him or, or offering some help?
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: Um, yes, and it was… This changes a lot, so ’cause then after, uh, Joe’s, uh, um, course, uh, I was curious about this person. I- they- it wasn’t a threat to me. I was just curious how can I or what can I do for him that he calms down And sometimes it’s just listening and understanding.
That’s all. So- Hmm … but for this you need awareness and, um, yeah, the discomfort disappear because now I was, I was in control of this.
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: Before, people had the control of how I feel because I, I wasn’t aware of this. And now- Hmm … I have the control by myself of how I wanna feel depending of what I’m displaying.
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: So, and this changes a lot.
Zach Elwood: Hmm. Did, and you, and you, and would you say you’re also more aware of, like, your own, uh, ways that you can manifest or display anxiety? Are you more aware of what your body language communicates to other people?
Gallia: Yes. Yes. I’m more aware, but I’m still learning as it’s, uh, a long path.
For example, if you get triggered by something, um, your amygdala goes wild and sometimes you react before you respond. Yeah, this is a lot of, uh, learning how to control these triggers or how to recognize these triggers first and how to learn, “Okay, so I, I will stop a little. I will give myself permission to pause.”
This is also a big thing. Give yourself permission to pause, and then I can respond properly. Yeah
Zach Elwood: You, you had mentioned, um, NLP, neuro-linguistic programming being kind of popular in Germany. It has- Yeah … I used to, I used to work for a NLP person years ago for, like, six months, and, uh, it did seem to me, ’cause I went with him to a, uh, training in, in London, and he went– he would go to Europe sometimes himself.
But it seemed to me like NLP was much more popular in Europe than it was in America, and I was curious, does that seem right to you? Or were there a lot of… Are there a lot of people in Germany that are into NLP?
Gallia: Yes, a lot. I was studying my psychology, uh, in psychology field. They popularized a lot NLP, and for behavioral, they were just two sentences.
Well, yeah, there is also behavior analysis, but that’s all. So it’s like it’s not as existing here. It’s not existent, th-this field. I don’t know why. Uh, it’s, it’s a mystery for me, also for Joe. Uh, he also noticed that German people, uh, um, refuse to, to, uh, to know something about this. I, I’m not sure why. If it’s, uh, if they are afraid that it becomes popular or because it’s not made in Germany and doesn’t have the quality.
I’m not sure. I just can suggest why it’s like that. But, um, yeah, for me, it wasn’t the way… I, I didn’t want to, to spend my time with this ’cause it, it didn’t convince me at all.
Zach Elwood: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So what you had said you’re doing, uh, are you– am I understanding that, that you’re doing some counseling therapy type work these days?
Is that, was that right? Uh,
Gallia: no. I’m- Oh … doing the, the dementia therapy.
Zach Elwood: Oh, okay.
Gallia: I
Zach Elwood: did- Gotcha.
Gallia: Yeah, I did this before, before, uh, after the, the airport, and I went to the, um- Pharmacology. Mm. Uh, yeah. And, uh, yeah, and while I was there, I was counseling pro bono for- Mm … women who are in toxic relationships.
Zach Elwood: Oh, okay.
Gallia: Um-
Zach Elwood: That’s mean- meaningful work. Yeah, that’s good work.
Gallia: Yeah. And, uh, it’s hard work. Yeah.
Zach Elwood: Yeah, I imagine.
Gallia: Y- yeah. And, uh, yeah, now I’m treating people with dementia. It’s- Mm … uh, also very interesting. Sad, but interesting, uh, because it has a lot in common with the field I’m studying now, and what fails w- in people with dementia, which we normally should have.
And, um, yeah, there are a lot of commonalities. Uh, it- it’s quite interesting. And also, like, uh, the, the, the non-verbals are reinforced, also empathy, and this is also a great skill to have as it’s lacking, I guess, all over the world, but I can speak from Germany. Yeah, there is a big lack of empathy nowadays- Mm
unfortunately. Yeah.
Zach Elwood: Do you have any, any other stories come to mind, uh, personal stories about, you know, reading people or making a deduction based on their behavior, uh, in your personal or, or professional life?
Gallia: Um, yes. I, actually I do this every day. It’s, it’s, it’s like, like Joe said, uh, observation is like a muscle, so you can train it and you become better at it.
If you don’t train it, that, yeah, it will disappear. And, um, yeah, what I observe, um, there are so many, uh, examples. I cannot tell you just one. Not a real big one, um, I could tell you. Yeah, it’s, uh, for example, at the airport, it’s, uh, yeah, it’s somebody is lost and, and it’s almost close before crying, and because he’s, or he or she doesn’t speak English and, and, and, and no German, and she doesn’t know where her gate is or where to go and how to ask.
And, uh, yeah, you can approach the person and tr- uh, yeah, with hands and, uh, non-verbals. “Yeah, show me your boarding pass and I will tell you where to go,” or, and you see, uh, there is a relief on them, and you feel good about being able- Mm-hmm … to notice this. Or today, for example, there was a guy, um, elderly guy, and he approached me and he said, uh, “Where can I find this?”
And I told him the way to find this, and he told me, “I asked almost 10 people here in Frankfurt. Nobody gave me an answer, and almost all of them passed me by, so they ignored me. So, like, I was asking for money or I was-” Mm-hmm. You know? And this makes a big difference. So, like, yeah, this makes you, like Joe says, exceptional.
Zach Elwood: Mm-hmm.
Gallia: Yeah.
Zach Elwood: I was curious, you know, you could kind of separate the behavior space into reading other people and then, like, adjusting your own behavior, like you said, to affect or, uh, influence other people. Uh, d- which do you see, which do you see as more powerful i-in your, at least in your own life, the, the reading other people or the affecting, adjusting our own behavior, if that makes sense?
Gallia: Yeah, it makes sense. Uh- It’s all together. It’s like, uh, like, um, you ca- you cannot separate them. It comes, it works together like a symbiosis. Hmm. It’s, uh, it’s symbiotic and you cannot separate reading people, uh, and adjusting. You, you have to adjust to be able to read a pe- a person. Hmm. So it’s, it’s about empathy.
It’s about observing, observing yourself. How do I interact? Yeah, being, uh, authentic. Authenticity is also b- a huge, uh, topic. Um, like Joe says, if you wanna create comfort, um, s- synchrony. So like synchrony, uh, to be congruent with your non-verbals- Hmm … and your verbals. The way you attire, the way the, the, uh, the way you walk, the way you speak, the congruency.
Synchrony becomes harmony. Harmony creates psychological comfort, and psychological comfort leads to trustworthiness, and this is all about. So if you’re trustworthy, you can Yeah. Yeah Which whatever, whatever you want.
Zach Elwood: I was curious when you, you had talked about, uh, Navarro being congruent. Can you explain the congruency for people that…
I’m not sure I completely understand it. You’re say- I think you would say it means that he’s appearing in ways that match what he’s saying, or maybe, but maybe you could talk about what congruency means to
Gallia: you. Yeah. It’s, it’s the, uh, the way he approach to you. So he practices what he preaches. Uh, for example, when I finished my, um, course with Joe, he gave me, um, um, um-
Zach Elwood: Like a certificate or
Gallia: a- Yeah, a certificate.
Thank you. Yeah. My certificate. Yeah, and he always, uh, in the course, he always said, uh, “It’s so important to get feedback, even if it’s not a comfortable one, and to acknowledge it, and to implement it, and to think about this.” So when I got my certificate, I said, “Joe, um, the certificate, it’s not working for Germany.
It’s, uh, it’s not gonna work. I know in the US they work differently, but this one doesn’t, uh, show you the content of the, the, the, the huge value of the con- it doesn’t reflect the value of y- the content of your, uh, master class. And I need, uh, for example, a number, a student number or the, the stamp of the APA approved.
And, uh, this is what German people look for, you know?” And he said, “Oh, well, this is a good point. Um, yeah, thank you very much for the feedback.” And two days later, I got my new certificate, and he applied it for the next students.
Zach Elwood: So- Oh, and what, he, he had changed something?
Gallia: Yeah, he changed. He- I got a student number.
He, uh, added the APA certificate stamp. Hmm. Uh, as it is APA certificate, uh, or APA approved.
Zach Elwood: Just a quick note here: I actually started digging into this a bit more, as it was something I wasn’t aware of. To quote from Joe Navarro’s site https://jnbodylanguageacademy.com:
The Joe Navarro Body Language Academy has partnered with Specialized Training Services to co-sponsor the Body Language Expert Program, with 60 CE credits available to approved students upon graduation. Specialized Training Services is approved by the American Psychological Association (APA) to sponsor continuing education for psychologists. Specialized Training Services maintains responsibility for this program and its content.
End quote
It’s unclear to me what this relationship between the APA and this Specialized Training Services organization is. For example, would APA say that they are endorsing Joe Navarro’s training and certification, or would they maybe phrase that in some more nuanced way? If they’d phrase it in a more nuanced way, how would they phrase it and what would that mean exactly? I’m also curious how hard it is to get accredited by this STS organization. I actually sent some questions to these organizations and maybe I’ll hear back. Anyway, back to the talk…
Gallia: Yeah, he took… I, I was, first I was, um, yeah, very kind of afraid of telling Joe Navarro what to do. But he was very thankful for this, and he accepted it, and yeah- Mm-hmm … he didn’t just like for me, so like, “Oh, Galia has a special, uh, she wants a special treatment.” No, he take it, he took it for all the students after me, you know?
Mm-hmm. And this is what I mean, the congruency, what he writes in his book. This is… Maybe he wasn’t aware of this, that, that in some countries they are more strict or whatever.
Zach Elwood: Mm-hmm.
Gallia: But he-
Zach Elwood: Mm …
Gallia: didn’t took it like, like a menace, but he took it like, uh, yeah, like the feedback he always wishes. And-
Zach Elwood: Right. Part of gaining rapport with people is, yeah, being open to feedback and-
Gallia: Yeah
Zach Elwood: and such. So yeah, yeah, that’s a big part of, uh, coming across as, as-
Gallia: Yeah …
Zach Elwood: as, as likable and authentic and everything, yeah.
Gallia: Yeah. He also says, “Never underestimate likability.” And-
Zach Elwood: Yeah. S- it is a huge factor, yeah.
Gallia: Yeah.
Zach Elwood: Do you have anything else that, that comes to mind for, um, for things that we, that you might wanna, wanna talk about that we didn’t talk about?
Gallia: Um, no. If you have further questions, I’m open to them. But, uh, uh, yes, actually it’s just my passion about all of this, and, uh, Joe initiates that. Mm-hmm. And he’s always open for questions. Uh, if I write him, he answers within two days
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: Or he offers, uh, uh, a chat. And this approachability, this is so exceptional.
Yeah. It’s- Hmm … it’s, it’s, uh, impressing. Yeah.
Zach Elwood: I- if you don’t mind me asking, uh, how much did the… You said it was like a nine-month. I assume it was, like, maybe once a week or something, but how much did that, um, course cost, the Navarro course?
Gallia: Uh, I’m not sure. I paid in euros. Um, I guess it was about 4,000 euros.
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: So around about
Zach Elwood: that. Was that like a once a week kind of thing or, or was it a-
Gallia: No. I, I spent a lot of time there. Um-
Zach Elwood: Oh …
Gallia: sometimes six hours a day.
Zach Elwood: Oh,
Gallia: wow. Yeah. Uh, as I didn’t want just to read it and finish it, so I want to absorb it, you know? Hmm. It was, uh, valuable, it was also expensive, and there was full of knowledge, uh, which helped me that much, and it was worth every single cent.
Zach Elwood: Oh, one thing I was, one thing I was curious about, I mean, Navarro himself talks about how, you know, um, the non-verbals, you know, there’s, there’s no good evidence that specific non-verbals are tied to deception. You know, there’s nothing like that, but it’s more about getting a read of anxiety, which may be useful in various contexts.
Yeah. But, but I’m curious, do you feel like the training has helped you get better at spotting when someone’s lying? I know that you can’t do, like, a this means that kind of thing, but do you, do you have experiences where you’re, like, more confident in your read that someone’s not telling the full truth?
How has that played out for you?
Gallia: Yes. Yes. Uh, but not because there is a single cue, uh, which shows you deception. Uh, there is nothing like this, like you says, there is no Pinocchio effect. But you’re always communicating. You know, y- you see this when, for example, when you omit saying something, you omit things y- or, or you, you stop within the sentence or you’re repeating something to convince someone from the opposite.
Uh, it’s about the congruency. You, uh, f- first you need a baseline, the baseline for the person to know her when she’s comfortable. Everything what deviates from this baseline, then it’s questionable. It doesn’t mean it’s, she’s not trustworthy or, uh, uh, he’s being deceptive. No, you cannot say that. Uh, for example, if you have a neurodivergent person, so what do you do?
So just because he’s not looking to you in the, uh, directly to the eyes doesn’t mean he’s lying. You know, there are a lot of idiosyncratic behaviors, but you know something is off. Not because he’s lying, but something is different from, uh, what neurotypical people would do, you know? Uh, it’s not just about neurodivergence, but also what normally people would do.
For example, if you’re talking to someone and you say, “I’m a great guy. I, I, I, I’m, I’m an, I, I’m a, actually I should be a hero, but, uh, uh, I’m not a hero. No, I’m normal guy. I’m normal, regular guy.” So, you know, you, you, you notice this incongruency. So, if you’re a normal guy, why should you mention this? If, uh, why should you mention if you’re, uh, that you should be a hero or you’re supposed to be a hero, you know?
These kinds of thing. And also, uh, uh, there is a lot to see about, so your non-verbals, are they matching eye, are they in, in, in sync with what you’re saying? Uh, the speech rate, the voice, pitch, tone, everything. Uh, also context matters, so maybe you’re nervous and you’re trying to explain something different.
Uh, you should see everything at once. There is no single cue of deception. This, yeah, it’s, it’s also what they are emphasizing now in the MSC. Yeah, that’s, they say no, there is no single cue of deception, and it’s not about interpreting, ’cause everyone had different exper-experiences where you could contaminate
Zach Elwood: Hmm
Gallia: the, uh, what you’re interpreting, and yeah.
Zach Elwood: Uh-
Gallia: This, but- I, I
Zach Elwood: was curious, d-does Navarro, uh, I don’t know if you watch, like, some of these people online that make all these really big claims about reading behavior, like Behavior Panel and these kinds of u- online shows. Does Navarro talk about some of those people in his course and how they’re people that really, uh, exaggerate what you can do with behavior?
Does he, does he cover much of that at all?
Gallia: Never. He never- Hmm … expresses, uh, contempt toward others or, or, or, um, speaks, uh, about others. He’s just focused on what he teaches, and then you learn in the right way. For example, uh, he once said, “I will never see one of my students pointing, not even to a chair, with your finger.”
This is not appropriate. This is like me- Oh, this pointing is perceived as rude … it’s like, it’s menacing ‘
Zach Elwood: cause it’s
Gallia: like, like the, like s- a stick like we had before, you know, when we were, we were living in caves, you know? It’s like a menacing. Threatening, yeah. So when… Yeah, it’s threatening. So if you, yeah, if you’re, uh, pointing to s- to a chair, please with your whole hand. So, and it’s a big difference. It gives you comfort.
Zach Elwood: Yeah.
Gallia: And I see this with my patients. If I say, “Take a seat,” and I do that one, it’s better if I say, “Take a seat.” So it’s like, you know- Right … I’m, it’s a big difference. There are some single things that accumulate. This is what matters. He also mentioned, for example, Disneyland. You will never see a s- a broken bulb in Disneyland.
Why? Because it would, uh, it would, um-
Zach Elwood: Ruin the illusion? …
Gallia: it ruin the magic. Yes.
Zach Elwood: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Gallia: That’s what he said, and so this is, yeah, it’s a good metaphor for, uh, the single, um, yeah, uh, the, the single things that matter.
Zach Elwood: Mm-hmm. Thinking about how others perceive you, yeah.
Gallia: Yeah. And not just this, also that you…
It’s not about thinking how others perceive you, so, but acting, uh, and adapting like you wanna be perceived. So act like the person you wanna become.
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Gallia: That’s about. Mm-hmm.
Zach Elwood: Mm-hmm. Well, this is great. Um, yeah, I think I’m good, unless you wanna share anything else. We could, we could wrap it up here. I, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing your, your thoughts and your learnings.
Gallia: Thank you. Thank you very much