I talk with Polina Vorozheykina, a software engineer based in Portland, Oregon, who also is a skilled player of so-called social deduction games. Social deduction games typically involve trying to figure out the secret roles and motivations of your opponents based on their actions and behaviors. Examples of social deduction games are Werewolf, Mafia, Avalon, and Resistance.
A transcript is below.
Links to the episode:
In this podcast, we discuss Secret Hitler, a popular social deduction game from the makers of Cards Against Humanity. Polina and I discuss topics including:
- A quick review of rules of Secret Hitler
- Common behavioral tells, such as:
- Length of time looking at cards
- Consistency of claims
- Talkativeness
- Body language, posture
- Use of language
- Some thoughts on strategy
I’ve only played Secret Hitler a few times, so I’m far from experienced, but I did write a blog post about behaviors/tells I noticed from beginner-level players.
If you like that, you might also like this piece about behavior in Cards Against Humanity and Apples To Apples.
If you like playing poker but aren’t familiar with my poker tells books/videos, you might like this blog post about verbal poker tells in the movie Rounders. Sign up for a free verbal poker tells email course here, which will help you better understand language in poker and other competitive games.
TRANSCRIPT
[Note that transcripts will always contain some errors.]
Zach: Hi, I’m Zach Elwood, the host of The People Who Read People Podcast. Before we get to the interview about the social deduction game, secret Hitler, I just wanted to mention that if you didn’t already know, I’m the author of several books on reading poker behavior, AKA Poker Tells. My first book is called Reading Poker Tells, and it’s been translated into seven languages.
I have two sequels to that book, and I also have a video series, which you can get at Reading Poker Tells video. If you enjoyed this podcast or my other podcast, please give this a rating on iTunes or whatever podcast platform you’re listening on. Okay, here’s the interview. Hello and welcome to the People Who Read People Podcast.
This is Zach Elwood, and today is October 28th, 2019. Today I’ll be talking to Paulina. Ana. Paulina is a software engineer based in Portland, Oregon. And she’s also an avid game player. And today we’re gonna be talking about the game Secret Hitler, which is what’s known as a social deduction game. Welcome to the show, [00:01:00] Paulina.
Polina: Hey, how you doing today?
Zach: Thanks a lot for coming on. And, uh, I guess we’ll start out with, yeah, how I invited Paulina on the show was, uh. I have some friends and acquaintances who play these games a lot, and I’d asked around about who the best player in town was, basically, and Pauline’s name came up. So I thought she’d be a good person to ask about these type of games.
Do you agree, Pauline, that you’re often or usually the best player at the table in these games, or
Polina: that is very kind of for you to say? Um, I, I’ve been playing social deduction games for eight years now, so I think I’ve kind of developed some strategies that help me out.
Zach: Is there a more serious level of competition for these games or is it mostly just people playing with friends and, and acquaintances or is there like enough another level beyond that?
Polina: I’ve played, uh, like in game stores, I’ve played more sort of competitive without friends per se, versions of this game, and I don’t find them as interesting. I think you kind of get a lot of, um, interesting parts in this game by playing with friends and kind of [00:02:00] seeing how they play and working off that.
Zach: Hmm. Like playing, getting, getting people who regularly play and kind of getting to know their, uh, their styles, long term kind of thing.
Polina: Yeah.
Zach: I didn’t know that you could play these kind of games at game stores, so are there some people that are, are pretty competitive at that, and do they play for, you know, money or prizes or anything like that?
Polina: I never played for money, but people do get competitive when it comes to winning.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: I think that’s, that brings a lot of joy to people.
Zach: Mm-hmm. So let’s, for people who aren’t that familiar, could you describe what a social deduction game is, what these type of games are?
Polina: Right. So those games tend to be a little lower complexity when it comes to specific rules that are written on the paper.
Um, where complexity kind of interest comes for me is when you engage with other players and kind of try to understand their gameplay and understand how they interact with the game. And. Attempt to [00:03:00] win or Yeah. Attempt to win by sort of interacting and seeing what their identity could be. Um, more simply stated, um, it’s a game usually of secret identities where somebody has an identity associated with them.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: And essentially try to figure out what their identity is while potentially hiding yours.
Zach: Yeah, so Secret Hitler is just one of them. I don’t know how many others you’ve played, but there’s, um, there’s also, you know, werewolf resistance, Avalon, uh, have you played many of the other popular games?
Polina: I think he actually summed up all the ones I played just now.
Zach: Oh yeah. Those are the real, real popular ones.
Polina: Yeah. I used to moderate and were boths in a while where you kind of get to see who everybody is and kind of see how they interact with that being part of the game, which was more of a, it’s a different experience than actually playing the game, but. Very, very interesting.
Nevertheless.
Zach: Yeah, that would be, I, I would think to get, get to watch people more because you’re, you’re not [00:04:00] in the game as much, so you, you do more observation. Is that, would that be accurate to say? Yeah. So I’m gonna do a very quick synopsis of the secret Hitler rules. I’ll just kind of do a monologue here.
I’m, I’m like, my goal is to sum up the, the basic rules before we get into talking about like some of the patterns and behaviors and stuff. So. I’ll just try to do this real quick. Uh, first of all, secret, Hitler’s a very complex game and we obviously, we can’t go into all the intricacies of the game here.
If you’re curious about the gameplay, there’s videos and, and text online about that. Uh, but some of the major dynamics are I. People in the game are either liberals or fascists, or they’re a specific fascist. Hitler, uh, liberals are the majority, but their weaknesses is that they don’t know who anyone is.
They don’t know who the, yeah, they don’t know who, uh, liberals are. They don’t know who fascists are. Fascists know who the other fascists are, including Hitler. Hitler doesn’t know who anyone is. So one part of gameplay involves fascists trying to get [00:05:00] fascist policies enacted, and liberals trying to get liberal policies enacted.
If fascists get six fascist policies enacted, they win. That’s one way they win. And how these policies get enacted goes like this, I. Every turn, the next person clockwise takes the role of president and nominates one other player to be the chancellor. And if the majority of the players vote to elect the chancellor, chancellor, that player is elected next.
If that person is elected, the president selects three cards from the deck, which includes liberal and fascist policies. The president discards one and passes two of them to the chancellor. The Chancellor then also chooses to, to discard one and plays the one that he chooses. So this is where a lot of the deception comes in here, because the chancellor may opt to lie about what cards, uh, the president handed them.
The president. Uh, so for example, if a fascist player became chancellor, he might be handed a liberal policy and a fascist policy and play the fascist [00:06:00] policy, but claim he was handed two fascist policies. So try to smear the, the president as being the fascist and not him. So the game has a lot of these.
One person knows the other person is lying, but no one else knows who’s lying kind of moments. So reading which person is telling the truth in these situations is a big part of the game. Uh, another way fascists can win besides getting the six fascist policies on the board is if the secret Hitler is elected Chancellor after three fascist policies have been enacted.
So liberals have to be very careful about who is elected. The later in the game it gets, but at the same time, there’s pressure to con, to actually have someone elected, because if three turns go by without a successful election, the top policy from the deck is automatically enacted. And there are more fascist policies than liberal policies in the deck.
So the pressure, the the, their time is, um, the clock is ticking because, you know, the longer the game goes without elections, the [00:07:00] more fascist policies start to add up. A quick note about general strategies here. The liberal strategy is always to aim for being transparent and honest. The liberals have no benefit to lying or deceiving.
While the fascist strategy is to pretty much lay low and behave like normal liberals like everybody else, in order to get their fascist policies enacted or to get a chance to elect Hitler if they get a chance to do it. Do that. So basically the fascists have to balance advancing their calls without raising too much suspicion.
Uh, so a big part of the game is knowing when to press ahead or when to lay low, um, and that there’s a lot more obviously, but I just wanted to give that quick rundown. Was that a pretty good synopsis, Paulina, or do you have or any other major, uh, rules that we should mention up front?
Polina: Yeah, that’s pretty good.
Um, the only thing I would add is. Sort of, kind of the powers that happen if fascist policies get elected. Um, the presidents that the, that had the presidency while those policies were elected get a special [00:08:00] power, uh, which comes into play after usually first or second mission. And, um, a lot of these policies let you, for example, look at someone else’s identity card and, uh, then the president can choose to lie or say the truth about it.
Or later in the game, they can have the power to, uh, killing power, kill a person in the game.
Zach: Mm.
Polina: Not literally kill, but uh, take them outta gameplay.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: And essentially, if they. Kill Hitler, then the liberals win by default.
Zach: Ah. So there can be, there can be a, uh, motivation even for the liberals to, to use those fascist powers and, and they might even theoretically try to, to get those powers if they want, if they want to try to kill Hitler or something like that.
Polina: Yep. It is a strategy you can use. I do not recommend it.
Zach: Oh yeah. So you Yeah. You’re saying it’s it’s dangerous to, to play with fire like that. Yeah. Yeah. Gotcha. So now, yeah, let’s get into, [00:09:00] um, some of the behavioral things, and I, I guess I should introduce this too, as saying. You can separate the deduction that you can have in this game.
You can separate into the more, you know, logical side of just determining, uh, who’s who based on the pure actions they take, the pure activity that they make, or the more behavioral side, which is how somebody speaks or behaves. Uh, do you see a pretty good, you know, a distinction there between those two things?
Polina: Yeah. Although I think when it comes to treating people, you have to look all of the, you have to look at all of those things.
Zach: You would say you’re looking at all of those things, both the actions they’ve taken and their, and their behaviors and forming your opinions.
Polina: Yep. Um, I usually keep kind of running tally of all the votes they’ve had and kind of reactions they have to different questions asked for them.
Zach: Mm-hmm. And
Polina: as it near them, kind of try to piece together what they could be.
Zach: Do you do all that in your
Polina: head? Yep.
Zach: Because it can be, [00:10:00] I know there’s probably a, a pretty good, uh, benefit to having a strong memory in this game, would you say? Because. It can, you know, one, one game can last a pretty long time involving a lot of different votes.
And would you say your memory is, is pretty strong for that?
Polina: Uh, I think, yeah, I had to develop strong memory for it and it also helps if you are fascist or trying to throw the game, having that memory because if you’re playing with somebody who does not necessarily remember those things, it’s much easier to influence the game.
I think like the best players I’ve played it in the past have really good memory about those things and it’s very hard to, you know, bullshit them on that.
Zach: Do you get a sense of, because you play with people pretty regularly, like the same group of players, are there other players that you just know these guys are, are good?
I, I can’t do anything, uh, I can’t do anything too tricky with them versus the players, you know, are, are more at a, um, a more amateur level?
Polina: Oh, absolutely. I feel like I use different strategies and folks I played with quite a bit versus, [00:11:00] uh, ones that are fairly new.
Zach: Let’s talk about, uh, what are some of the more beginner level tells and behaviors that, you know, people that first learn the game have?
Can you talk about some of the ones that you find most useful?
Polina: There’s a couple tells. Um, usually beginners take a way longer time to look at cards and play them. Um, so a good example, a thing that happens in this game a lot is you might get three fascist policies. Um, because there tends to be more fascist policies in the deck.
So as president, you’re very likely to draw three fascist policies, or usually two fascists and one liberal.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: And, um, beginners will, if they have a choice, if they get presented on, you know, a blue card in two reds, or just at least one of each, they tend to take longer to look at them versus if they got three fascists, they would usually take shorter time to look at it.
And that way you can kind of tell if they actually had a choice
Zach: mm-hmm.
Polina: To give cards, to give a choice or to not, [00:12:00] um, versus more, you know, players that have been playing it for a while usually take the same time no matter what. So it’s kind of hard to tell.
Zach: Right. So they pause a few seconds just to give themselves coverage for when they need to think later.
So they’re just really consistent.
Polina: Yeah. And you can kind of, um, you can kind of also tell where the eyes go actually. So if you have three cards, um, they’ll focus on one of them.
Zach: Mm-hmm. And
Polina: that usually means it’s either a liberal and you have two fascists or fascist ones. Two more liberals. Hmm. So it’s, it’s important to kind of also tell if they’re kind of moving their eyes about these cards or they’re focusing on one.
Zach: Right. And so would you say it’s usually the, it’s with somebody who’s actually thinking like that? It’s usually gonna be a fascist deciding what to do. ’cause the liberals have easier decisions. Right.
Polina: Um, I actually depends on you. They are. So if they’re very new and they’re not. Familiar with the game, they could be kind of trying to figure out that’s true.
You know, which one do I put down? Mm-hmm. But if they [00:13:00] played a couple more times, but they’re not. You know, as experienced in it yet usually.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: Usually it’s a good tell.
Zach: Yeah, that reminds me. ’cause I’ve only played this game myself like a, a handful of times in one night, and it was interesting because there were so many, you know, absolutely new players.
And just kinda like in poker too, the, the, the very new players, you just can’t rely on any information from them because they’re just behaving in completely, you know, absurd ways like the. There was a, uh, person who was, you know, liberal who kept acting like a fascist even after we explained there was no, literally no benefit to that.
But, you know, so you could, yeah, it’s like you said, it’s like if they’re super beginner, there’s no telling what’s going on, but you need a, you need a little baseline, uh, skill there to, to be able to read what’s, uh, get some semblance of, of what’s going on. Uh, okay. So besides the, um, the length of time looking at cards and the eye direction, anything else come to mind as far as things that were, have been really useful for you?
Polina: Kind of more of [00:14:00] a overall game versus individual thing? Um, or individual moment in the game is, uh, beginners kind of tend to call people a lot more on the current play or the thing that just happened and, um, kind of ignore. Or not ignore, but kind of put aside the continuity of their actions. So for example, if I was fascist and I played, you know, a very important time in the game, I played a fascist policy, but later in the game I played a liberal policy, beginners would tend to latch onto that.
And when it comes to kind of accusing people, specifically beginners that are fascists tend to be. More vocal and move their accusations to the person that just did the most fascist thing.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: Um, so this is kind of a tell on how you can tell a beginner and kind of how fascist beginners operate. From my per perspective.
Zach: Yeah. It, it makes sense. ’cause I, I had noticed that too. It was like [00:15:00] if they claim that somebody lied early in the game, they, that should stick with them. Right. And instead, if they’re pretending to be liberal and, and they just made that up, they won’t remember that as much So. In a similar thing what, what you’re saying, they, they tend to just focus on the thing that’s in front of them and not, you know, not the thing that they claimed, you know, several minutes ago, because they’re just not putting in that work to be consistent.
Polina: That’s something that just comes with gameplay. Mm-hmm. I think the more you learn about the game, the more you kind of develop those strategies.
Zach: One question I had about this game was, you know, there’s the concept of game theory optimal. Like what’s the. What’s the approach that very skilled players would take versus each other?
Do you feel like, does the, the more skilled players you play with, does the game sort of drift towards, you know, complete silence or, you know, are people still trying to, do you think people would still be trying to fool each other and, and talk a lot? Or do you think it becomes more and more silent? The, the stronger the competition gets, [00:16:00]
Polina: um, it, there’s becomes a whole lot more influence I wanna say.
Um, so kind of a, a good example, I’m thinking about more of a fascist tell from someone who’s played in a while is, uh, they chose, chose very strategic moments to convince me of something. Um, so they will stay quiet until it becomes important, like after the third fascist mission has passed. Um, just kind of to remind, um, after a third fascist mission, if a Hitler’s elected chancellor, it will be game over for liberals.
So if at that point people kind of start kind of trying to get your opinion or hint you at something, it becomes kind of a minefield almost of being influenced. Hmm. Um, so I find those games really fascinating. It, it’s, it becomes quieter overall until in the moments where there’s a lot of pressure. And then you suddenly start having a lot of these influences and trying to pick through [00:17:00] those.
Zach: Yeah, I would think that would be interesting because I would think, you know, it kind of with the more skilled players, you start drifting towards people being more quiet and more cautious with their behavior. But then you, like you said, you would have those spots where. Somebody’s trying to influence you, and maybe you can get a read based on like, okay, even though this is a skilled player, like why is he trying to influence me in this, you know, specific moment.
And then that, that can be a decent tell. You’re saying from even from somebody who’s, who’s quite good because they’re kind of forced into it, they. They feel the pressure to try to influence you?
Polina: Oh yeah. I joke, um, that when I’m liberal, people don’t trust me a lot in this game anymore. Uh, I’ve thrown a fair amount of people under the bus, but uh, when I’m liberal and somebody comes up to me on the side and starts being like.
Who do you trust? Do you think they’re fascism? Like there’s 99% chance you’re fascist right now and you’re trying to influence me. Like people, people don’t come to me like that. And [00:18:00] usually people don’t trust me and they don’t want to hear my opinion as bad as that sounds. So when people do, I’m like, oh, I think you’re fascist.
I think you’re trying to influence me.
Zach: When you get a reputation like that, that people you know respect your game and don’t trust you, does the game become harder? Or do, do you just have to adjust your, your strategies?
Polina: It becomes much harder and I have to adjust my strategies. So what ends up happening when people don’t trust you is people tend to target you for investigation.
Zach: Mm-hmm. And
Polina: as a reminder, um, as one or two fascist policies get passed, the president, uh, who passed the fascist policy gets to have investigative powers. So a lot of the time I’ll be a target of investigation, which will make it very, very hard for me to stay anonymous, fascist.
Zach: Right. Um,
Polina: and when I see that happening, game to game, I start throwing my game.
So I start playing fairly, uh, different.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: No matter who I am, liberal or fascist. So. [00:19:00] People will kind of start either believing that I play bad or kind of stop focusing on knowing my identity, and then I can go back to my old ways.
Zach: So I’d imagine, um, you know, even though, I mean when, when people know you’re a skilled player like that, even though they might be distrustful that you’re, you know, a deceitful fascist, I would imagine when you get investigated and it’s obvious that you’re a liberal, it must be you must have super, uh, sway in the game.
You’re like, you can influence the game a lot at that point because everyone’s gonna listen to you. Is that true?
Polina: That happens sometimes. Then it kind of depends on who’s investigating because Oh, then there’s a chance. They think both of us are fascists.
Zach: Right. That’s a good thing to point out. We didn’t, we didn’t mention, I don’t think that, um, that’s, that’s also hidden information.
So if the president or whoever investigates you, then they can’t tell everyone that. It’s just you, you both know that, but nobody else knows that. Right?
Polina: Yeah.
Zach: So that’s a, it’s one player says this. The other player says that. Gotcha.
Polina: It’s a game of he should said, he said. She [00:20:00] said. At the end of the day,
Zach: any other tells behaviors stand out as as meaningful besides, um.
The ones we mentioned, either for beginner players or more skilled players.
Polina: Oh, there’s many little tells. Um, I’ll just go through a few of them that I pay attention to. Um, so I think people’s body language betrays them a lot when it comes to more advanced players. Um, so for example, I, I get heated up when I lie.
So, um, I tend to, if I know I’m fascist, I eat some ice cubes to cool down my body temperature. And, uh, uh, a lot of the time when people lie to your face, um, they tend to get a little redder. Mm. So that’s a good thing to know. Um, another kind of thing that I picked up on is language. So as the game kind of advances and people get heated up and less careful with what words they use, liberal, uh, victory for the liberals, they could use the word we are about [00:21:00] to win versus liberals are about to win.
I. So when, when we’re saying we’re about to win, they kind of incorporate themselves with the liberals. Chances are they’re liberal versus, you know, liberals are about to win means, you know
Zach: mm-hmm.
Polina: Chances are they’re more likely fascists.
Zach: Right. Gives you a little bit extra, extra info. Yeah.
Polina: And, um, just other small words like that throughout, like, you know, being happy if a liberal policy got passed.
In the first kind of few seconds of the car being laid down, you can tell a lot about people’s feelings about it. Just from their facial expression.
Zach: Yes, that reminds me. Um, ’cause I had written a, um, a blog post about playing, um, you know, just with my limited, uh, I played one night, you know, a few games and I’d written a blog post on my site reading poker tells.com.
And one of the things I. I had kind of set myself a, uh, challenge to like see how quickly I could just from behavior, try to guess who was most likely the, [00:22:00] uh, the fascist. And one thing I noticed was like, as soon as we all looked up, ’cause you start out the game, if, if people don’t know you start out the game, you know, with your eyes closed.
And people, the fascist put out their, put out their fingers and, and people, the fascists know who they are. So when everybody starts the game. I got a sense of the people that were, uh, the liberals are much more curious. They’re open, right? They’re looking around trying to figure out who’s who, but the fascists are much more, uh, kind of, uh, reserved.
You know, they’re, they’re kind of, uh, feeling furtive. So the one thing I noticed was, right, right off the bat, the, uh, the fascists were kind of like looking down and, and looking more reserved. Where the liberals were like, looking around really, like happily and anxiously, like, I wanna see, you know, who’s doing what and.
Yeah, that was, so that was an interesting thing right there. Just that body language, immediate body language, uh, playing out.
Polina: Interesting. I think I’ve kind of seen that from person to person as opposed to, um, what their role is, [00:23:00] is, uh, one individual comes to mind when their fascists, he’s very like, leans in.
He’s, he is in the table and he starts looking at people and I’m like. All right, but when he is liberal, he kind of starts looking when he is. Kind of the back of the chair, so. Mm-hmm. I feel like, yeah,
Zach: so he’s trying to be tricky. Yeah. He’s definitely player specific, you’re saying. Yeah.
Polina: Yeah. I think, I think after you play with one person for a bit, you learn a lot about them and then they have to start throwing their game a bit,
Zach: right?
Yeah. And that, that’s a good point too. ’cause the one, the stuff I was looking at was like, these were very beginner level people, you know? They had, most of them had just learned that. That night. So it was definitely a, you know, a very, um, getting very, very beginner level tells. Uh, but that’s awesome that you get, you’ve actually gotten like, you know, that’s like some very player specific, uh, knowledge.
That’s, that reminds me of some, you know, some poker tell knowledge when you play with. Some regulars for a long time. You get that kind [00:24:00] of detailed knowledge about their tendencies. Uh, any other like player specific things come to mind where, uh, somebody acts in a very specific way, uh, that is kind of unusual for, in a general sense, but very applicable to them.
Polina: Well, um, this is more kind of a general game thing, but. Uh, fascists don’t tend to put other fascists in, um, missions with them. So, um, I kind of look a lot into, you know, voting pattern of the president before they, um, they, you know, pick their chancellor. And if I tend to kind of be skeptical of them as being liberal, I see who they put on chancellor missions with them and I kind of believe them more.
So what I found is if you’re a fascist, you do not want another fascist on, on the ticket with you because if it becomes, um, a fascist policy comes out of that ticket, um, you are [00:25:00] potentially risking having two people under scrutiny. Mm-hmm. Which is high percentage of, um, your team per se. So it’s, it’s very rare to see a fascist president with, uh, another fascist as a chancellor.
It’s kind of a interesting game dynamic. Um, I tend to vote, I actually tend to vote no in a lot of missions just to kind of potentially fail missions and see how people vote and get more information about them.
Zach: Um, and ASH missions of the Or the votes? Yeah, the, uh, I think I had read about some strategy that was.
It was like purposely passing a, a liberal and a fascist policy to the chancellor so you could, you know, test them. Like there was some, some value to doing that. Even though you, you obviously run the risk of, um, getting the fascist policy played. Is that a strategy that, that you use or is that a common one?
Polina: I think, um, I mean [00:26:00] it’s, it’s a lot of players use it in the beginning of the game when you’re not getting close to the end. Um, it’s a bit, it’s kind of risky to use by then because having another fascist policy just gets fascist one step closer to winning. Um, but I also do not see a lot of chancellors who are fascists with a liberal president passing fascist policies.
It’s not as common, so they could easily be a fascist and pass a little bit of policy to kind of gain trust
Zach: from the
Polina: people
Zach: I see. In the early stages. Yeah. Yeah.
Polina: I think one of the, kind of the best tell of who liberal is is if they get to a policy where they have a chance to have killing power and they still pass the liberal policy, they’re almost a hundred percent guaranteed to be liberal.
Zach: What about, uh, eye contact is, do you notice anything with that when people are looking you in the face and accusing you or anything? Pop up for eye contact?
Polina: I think, yeah. [00:27:00] So as a fascist, when I get accused by somebody who looks straight into my eyes without blinking, I know they know. Um, and in that case I just try to make them seem irrelevant.
Um, but when I am a liberal and. You gotta throw somebody under the bus to, to stay relevant. Sorry, name
Zach: of the name of the game.
Polina: Right. But no, but when I’m liberal I do tend to ask people if they’re fascist and see their response. And I don’t actually kind of look at their reaction. ’cause people at this point think they are, you know, expecting it sort of.
But it does, um, does kind of stress them enough where, you know, they can slip up with language later. They can get a little red and heated later. Um, I don’t actually do it to kind of gain information from that question, but kind of throw them off their feet.
Zach: And, uh, when you say the, uh, throwing under the bus that you, you’re referring to, [00:28:00] um, basically convincing everyone that that person is a fascist?
Polina: Yeah, it’s, it’s not the nicest thing to do, but a lot of the time when I’m fascist, um, if I’m president, I’ll throw out a liberal and give them to fascists and then. Convince myself almost that I gave them a choice. And when they understandably not, not pass liberal policy, get very shocked. Mm-hmm. Um, it can backfire fairly easily so people can not trust me.
They can not trust either one of us and take us both at the running. I would only kind of do that if there’s a chain of trust between, uh, that person and someone else. So if it’s another liberal, then investigated another liberal at the time. I can throw them under a bus, it will take out two liberals from kind of the rotation of presidency.
Zach: Mm. Um,
Polina: and myself.
Zach: Gotcha. So a bit of a self-sacrifice to get the job done. Yeah.
Polina: Yeah.
Zach: And I guess, so are you more likely to, uh, [00:29:00] to do that move against an relatively unskilled player, or would you do that? Regardless, if you just thought it was a good strategy,
Polina: I would do it against an unskilled player.
It’s, it’s easier for me to kind of, uh, seem believable.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: There, there’s a kind of couple things I do to seem believable and, uh, it’s much easier for me to kind of play off their shock mm-hmm. Um, when I throw them under the bus. So it’s, it’s much easier for me to kind of throw a newbie who might not be expecting it under the bus.
Zach: Right. And it’d be, yeah. Do you have examples of that? ’cause I know, like I can, I can kind of know what you’re talking about because more beginner level players kind of respond in kind of known expected ways. So I’m sure you have, you know, certain strategies for, for making yourself seem. I. More believable.
Polina: Um, so yeah, there’s a couple things I do personally and, uh, a lot of it is kind of, uh, playing into real life. So if I am a [00:30:00] fascist and, uh, say somebody wants to investigate me, I, uh. I fully convinced myself that in real life, I’m not a fascist. Um, I’m a liberal. So if somebody in real life would approach me and tell me I’m fascist, I would be shocked.
Um, not getting too much into politics, but I kind of, you know, step myself out. I’m not my card. I’m who I am. So when I get investigated, but someone know who to be liberal and they call me fascist, I kind of externalize that and I feel shocked. And then people believe my facial expression over theirs. Hmm.
Sometimes.
Zach: Wow. That’s a, that’s a, that’s an advanced, uh, advanced technique.
Polina: And another thing I do is when I’m president, or when I’m chancellor and I’m expecting to pass a fascist policy, I will kind of almost not look at the cards. I will know I’m passing a fascist policy.
Zach: Hmm.
Polina: And, um, you know, when I pick up those cards, I just immediately go for the red.
I’m primed to look at red and I see red, and that’s what [00:31:00] I play and it’s kind of the same when I’m passing them to fascist policies.
Zach: Mm-hmm. That’s kind of reminds me, and the cliche in poker is if you can convince yourself you’ve got a strong hand, you know, you’ve got a much better chance of, um, you’re bluff succeeding.
Polina: I’ve done that definitely when I had, uh, two red cards, even though they’re off suit. So when I had a heart and, uh. Wow, I’m forgetting now.
Zach: Oh, the, uh, diamonds. Yeah,
Polina: diamonds. Oh my God. When I had two, like low red, red suit cards, I’d be like, they’re both hearts. That’s what I see.
Zach: Yeah. Convince yourself. Yes.
Change, change reality. Any other, um, behavioral patterns come to mind? Like, one thing I was thinking about was, um, just the sheer amount of talking that, that people do. Like they’re, especially for, I guess it’s probably more a, um. Beginner level tell, but when liberals are relaxed, they’re much more talkative than those same players are when they, you know, take the turn playing the fascist.
You know? So sometimes just the, the [00:32:00] sheer amount of loquacious can be a clue.
Polina: Oh, absolutely. That and, um, kind of who they throw under the bus or who do they claim to be fascist. So liberals will tend to pick, you know, 1, 2, 3 people and kind of stick with them. Versus fascists can, you know, in the beginning of the game, pick these two people and then at the end of the game have completely different, two, three people that they believe are fascists.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: Um, to kind of, depending on how the game goes, if, if there’s a major shift in their perception, they might, I. That might be kind of shifting as to what other people believe as opposed to what they believe.
Zach: Hmm. Yeah. And you’re saying liberals will remain more consistent because they remember those slights and assaults longer.
Polina: Yep. Um, and another kind of thing, and that’s toward more comfortable in the game fascists. Um, they tend to throw, from my experience, someone who’s played up for a while and is fascist [00:33:00] will throw, you know, two to three people under the bus. And one of those will be a fascist, the rest will be liberal. Um, so that way, if kind of they’re, they, they have a moment of believability if that, you know, one of them who’s fascist
Zach: mm-hmm.
Polina: Acts more fascist. Mm-hmm. But if they throw that person under their bus, they potentially throw another, you know, two people who might be liberal under the bus and take them outta rotation, make themselves be more believable. Mm-hmm. Uh, so when somebody like claims these three people are fascists, I think one of these three people is definitely fascist and the person who’s claiming that they could be a liberal, but if they’re very convinced on these three people, and that’s something that’s shifted over time.
I. One of those three fascists,
Zach: is it ever a strategy to, for some one of the fascists to kind of make it obvious that they’re fascists so that the other players can more easily, more easily disguise themselves as [00:34:00] liberal by, you know, throwing that obvious fascist under the bus? Is that ever something people do or is that, that you would never do that because you’d never want to make it obvious?
Polina: Uh, I’m laughing a bit, but we actually, um. Myself and this other player, um, we kind of talked before the game and we’re like, if we both wake up as fascists, we’re gonna do this gameplay. Uh, what he ended up doing is, you know, we woke up, we were both fascists, uh, somebody else was fascist as well, and there was a Hitler.
And, uh, in the beginning of the game, that person was like, I’m fascist, so is Paulina. And so is this, you know, person. Let’s call him Bob. But Bob was liberal, so ah, Bob gets truthfully offended. And like, I’m not fascist. This person who’s calling us out is fascist. And I’m like, I’m not fascist, they’re fascists.
Um, and then, yes, this person threw themself under a bus, but there is very good [00:35:00] trust in me now.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: Mm-hmm. And I got, I got killing power twice that.
Zach: Oh wow. Interesting. Yeah.
Polina: So it ended up being a very interesting play. So it’s convincing me that those kinds of plays to make yourself obviously fascist.
Could work.
Zach: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It’s just about how you follow up with it and what you do with it after that. Yeah.
Polina: Yeah.
Zach: Huh. That’s interesting.
Polina: And if, uh, also if you have a liberal who believes you’re fascist, they’re very keen on you being fascist, you can kind of hint your votes and have them voting the opposite.
Um, so a couple times that happened, I was fascist and I knew this like. This one person was on me, they knew who two of the fascists were. Like they had it all. Um, and then I was like, you know, Hitler gets proposed to be chancellor. And I make this face being like, no, that’s a bad idea. Let’s not do that.
And this person is like, that’s a great idea. Let’s vote yes for this. And of course, last minute I flip a yes. And we elect [00:36:00] this person as, um, Hitler.
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: So it’s like you can, if you know what to do with it, if, if somebody knows you’re a fascist, you can kind of get them to vote differently, can throw under other people under the bus.
Somebody suspects you’re a fascist, you investigate a liberal. They start thinking that liberal Hitler. So depends what you do with them.
Zach: Yeah, there’s all these, I mean, that was the one thing that struck me with the game. It was a lot of fun, but it was also most like too many factors. It just seemed like I just got the sensation of like all these factors being present that I only had enough time or brainpower to act on a few of them, you know?
Polina: Um, so I guess. On that, it’s like, pick your forte. Like my forte is checking voting patterns and checking for groups of votes. So whether I’m fascist or liberal, I will use that information later in the game to either, to mostly gain trust in myself. So if I pick up on some patterns, you know, I’m fascist and there’s [00:37:00] two liberals that have been voting the same and say.
They voted on a mission that failed. I will. I will use that fact later in the game and try to put them both as fascist and because I speak with conviction, because I did see their vote, not necessarily kind of the meaning of that vote. People tend to trust me.
Zach: I. Hmm. And I guess it’s like they say one of the big goals of the fascist is, is just, um, you know, creating chaos.
Like the more chaos and uncertainty you can create, the longer the game goes on and the more chances there are of, uh, getting the fascist policies out.
Polina: Yeah, and actually another interesting thing I wanna add. Is, um, if fascists or people you suspect to be fascists kind of super loud, have a lot of opinions about things and it’s the mission where picking Hitler as chancellor matters.
And you know, somebody proposes, we put this person who’s Hitler and they just get silent or don’t wanna talk about it. And they’ve played this [00:38:00] game a decent amount. Almost guarantee that person’s Hitler.
Zach: Mm-hmm. Especially
Polina: if they’ve played this game a lot, they do not want to have their opinions associated with that person.
Zach: Mm.
Polina: Because a lot of the time, if you have your opinions associated to people, people will think you two are on the same team. And, uh, as a fascist, you never want to have Hitler associated with a fascist.
Zach: Yeah. So they’ll, you’ll get information by unusual amount of, of silence when they’re usually more, more animated.
Polina: People always have opinions, so if somebody doesn’t have opinion about something that’s fishy,
Zach: something’s fishy. Yeah. Yeah, but it’d be kind of fun to study the, um, several games in a row with the same players and see what, uh, try to try to find other verbal, uh, little verbal tells. That would be kind of fun.
Polina: I, I’ve actually, I have this player that always figures out I’m fascist, so I’m trying to figure out what my tells are right now. Hmm. And it’s hard. I’ve tried changing up things. I tried, you know, eating ice cubes, drinking tea, all that’s all those small things. [00:39:00] And they still figure it out. So I’m like,
Zach: hmm,
Polina: I, I think a lot of it is also like how you use your arms, kind of how long you look at people when you try to figure out things about them.
And it’s like, you gotta be aware of a lot of these things, or at least kind of, you know, be able to tell what exactly you’re doing with your body. And I think that’s important in a lot of social deduction games.
Zach: And you feel that they’re reading you pretty well, you don’t think it’s just a, um, just the luck of the draw that they’ve, they’ve guessed you a few times.
Polina: They’ll guess me even when I’m not on a mission.
Zach: Hmm.
Polina: Figure it out. Interesting. It’s happening. They’ve played this game for a while, so,
Zach: oh, gotta gotta watch the game, uh, game tape recorded and, and play it back and study. Study the game tape. Uh, maybe
Polina: one day.
Zach: That might be too much effort for this, for this game.
Um. Anything else, uh, come to mind, uh, that we haven’t talked about yet?
Polina: No, I think we covered most of it. Yeah.
Zach: No, I think that was, uh, that was pretty great. [00:40:00] Um, awesome. I’m trying to think, uh, what else I got here in my questions list and you said you liked, uh, you, you thought playing. If you were playing with like really tough competition, that’s not, as you would say, that’s not as fun.
Uh. And experiences playing with a few, you know, a more, a more, uh, standard set of people.
Polina: So, uh, I’ve played with, um, I played a 10 person game before with, uh, two poker players, not including myself and a few kind of veteran werewolf resistance Avalon players. Mm-hmm. And I didn’t know them. I, that was my first time playing with a lot of them.
And, um, it was, it was much quieter actually. Um. And I had to, I had to work harder and to kind of figuring out their micro tells, like eye contact inflection of the voice. Another thing I guess I failed to mention is, uh, people’s voice of [00:41:00] pitch does get higher unless they train it, if they lie. So I had to pick up more on that versus kind of decipher person I’ve played with for a while and kind of seeing what they’re doing right now.
And, uh, comparing it to their previous plays.
Zach: Hmm.
Polina: So it was a lot more, a lot less comparative of, you know, how they play liberal versus how they play fascist. And a lot more like eye contact, inflection of voice language, how much they move their hands, even how hard they clutch their card. Uh, so what I found.
Not with the poker players, but a couple of the resistance players is when they’re fascists, they bring their card very close to themselves, like they wanna hide it versus liberals like, leave it on the table or like leave it around their drink. Um, so like picking up on a lot more universal clues like that versus, you know, what a person does.[00:42:00]
Zach: Mm-hmm.
Polina: Day to day, game to game.
Zach: Yeah, I think that’d be pretty interesting. I don’t know if you, if you ever get a chance to, if you ever do play in those games again. Um, if you’d be into it, let me know. ’cause I always thought it’d be interesting to videotape one of those games with high level players.
’cause I just like, I would like to study it, you know, and I think other people would like to study it too. So. If you ever do get in that situation and you think the other people would be interested, I like, I would set up a couple cameras and, you know, make a, make a little video of it or something and might be fun.
Polina: Yeah, that’d be kind of cool.
Zach: Yeah. Look for some, look for some interesting, you know, patterns and, and tells, and the, the players might look at it as a. Chance to like study themselves and see, see how they play from a distance or something. Um, okay. If, yeah, unless you have anything else, I think we could wrap it up.
Polina: No, that was it. Thank you so much. I really appreciate the time.
Zach: Oh yeah. And, and again, this was, uh, Paulina raa, uh, did I say it right this time?
Polina: You got it. You got it.
Zach: Raa. Okay. [00:43:00] Again, Pauline is a software engineer based in Portland, Oregon. Okay. Thanks a lot, Paulina.
Polina: Thank you.
Zach: Thanks for listening to the People Who Read People podcast.
My website is reading poker tells.com. If you’d like to find the blog post I wrote about reading behavior in secret Hitler. Just Google secret Hitler behavior and you should find it. If you enjoyed the podcast very much appreciate it if you give it a rating. Thanks.