Zack Davies was a standout contestant on the popular reality TV show The Traitors (UK, season 2). The Traitors is what is called a social deduction game, similar to the games Werewolf and Mafia. In this talk we examine psychological factors and behavioral clues that can shape players’ perceptions and decisions in this game. We discuss how friendships and rivalries can negatively affect people’s judgment. We talk about behavioral clues; for example, why it is that unusually expressive, exuberant behavior is a clue that someone is a Faithful (i.e., a “good guy”). We talk about social deduction game strategy, deception, group psychology, unconscious bias, and how to make tough judgments when there’s little actual information or evidence to go on. Zack shares behind-the-scenes stories from the show, including the intense stress of life in the castle, and a panic attack that never made it on TV. Whether you’re a fan of The Traitors or just interested in human behavior, you’ll probably find a lot to like in this episode.
Check out Zack’s podcast Pint Sized History.
A transcript of this talk is below.
Episode links:
- YouTube (includes video)
- Apple Podcasts
- Spotify
Resources related to or referenced in this episode:
- Wikipedia on The Traitors, UK season 2
- An interesting Zack Davies interview about his experience on the show
- Episode of mine on reading tells in Secret Hitler
TRANSCRIPT
(transcript is automatically generated and will contain errors)
Zack Davies: I had a panic attack during a roundtable- I was basically having a mental breakdown on TV… During one of the round tables, I think it was the one where we got Paul out, he was really trying to fuck with my head on the way into that round table… Paul and I, about an hour before that, had had, uh, a scene which did make it on TV, which is us in the hallway and me saying, “I think it’s you. I’m voting for you tonight. I want you gone. I think you’re, you’re essentially emotionally manipulating people. “And he, and he was just really trying to pull on my heartstrings and crocodile tears. And when we got into that bar room, there were no cameras, but for about an hour off TV he was just staring at me, being like, “It’s not me. It’s not me.” And then I went into the round table just freaking the fuck out…I was really going through it quite badly, ’cause obviously the environment is really tuned to bring out the worst mental side of you and the most, um, like, the most irrational, emotional side of you, um, ’cause that just makes great TV…
Zach Elwood: Hi I’m Zach Elwood, host of The People Who Read People podcast. That was a clip from my talk with Zack Davies, who was a contestant on the very popular reality TV contest show The Traitors. The Traitors has been produced in multiple countries: Zack was in the second season of the British series.
If you don’t know what The Traitors is, it’s what is called a social deduction game, similar to other social deduction games you might know, like Werewolf and Mafia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_deduction_game . You might know of the board game Secret Hitler or the video game Among Us; those are also social deduction games.
In a social deduction game, one or more players are assigned to be the bad guys, who kill off or otherwise hurt the good guys, while the good guys try to figure out who the bad guys are based on various social interactions and also any game play that goes on. The reason it’s called a social deduction game is because much of the decisions you make are based on your interactions with the other players; you are deducing from how they act in various situations whether they’re more likely to be the bad guys or the good guys.
In the show The Traitors, the good guys are called the Faithfuls and the bad guys are called the Traitors.
I recently got into watching The Traitors; I watched the first season of the American series, and then I watched the second season of the British series. I wanted to talk to Zack about some thoughts I had about behavioral indicators and clues that someone was either a Faithful or a Traitor. And I also wanted to talk to him about some behind the scenes type questions I was curious about.
Another interesting thing that I learned recently. A couple years ago, based on my being known for my poker tells work, a woman sought me out for some consulting on reading behavior. She told me she was about to go on a TV show contest that involved reading other people, but wouldn’t tell me which show it was. So I gave her some rough thoughts as best I could, without knowing exactly what she was doing; thoughts ranging from poker type scenarios to social deduction game scenarios — although I’ll say my thoughts on social deduction games were much more vague a couple years ago than they are now. I had forgotten about my talking to her, but as I was watching The Traitors recently I started wondering what show she had been on, and I looked her up and realized she appeared on the Dutch series of The Traitors. I don’t want to say her name as I haven’t gotten explicit permission to mention that I worked with her, but I am trying to get her on the podcast to talk about her preparation and experience on that show, so hopefully that happens.
I’ll also mention that I’m working on a general book about reading people, which will be called Read People For Real; that’s one reason I was researching The Traitors. If you want to stay in the loop on that book, go to my site behavior-podcast.com and put in your email to get updates.
A little bit about my guest Zack Davies:
He was a Faithful, so one of the good guys trying to deduce who the bad guys were. Zack struck me early on in the show as being one of the more observant contestants. One likely factor for that perception is that he worked in politics; he had worked for several parliamentary members. For that reason, I thought he wouldn’t last long, as people on that show who are perceived as smart strategists are usually targets for getting killed off by the Traitors. But he ended up going very deep; the show started with 22 people, and he was killed by The Traitors in episode 11, leaving only six people, and that was the next to last episode.
Zack has a podcast of his own now, which is a blend of history and fun conversation; it’s called Pint Sized History, with the pint in the title referencing the fact that they drink some beer on the show. I subscribed to Pint Sized History on instagram and enjoyed the short clips they had on there.
For those who haven’t seen this season of the show that Zack was on, it will contain some specific points that might be hard to follow, but stick around because we do talk about general ideas about reading people and reading behavioral patterns that I think you’ll find very interesting.
Okay here’s the talk with Zack Davies:
Zach Elwood: Hey, Zach. Thanks for joining me.
Zack Davies: Thank you. Pleasure to be here.
Zach Elwood: So, uh, do you wanna talk a little bit about what you’re working on these days?
Zack Davies: Yeah. Uh, so these days, most of my time is bound up in my full-time job, which is, uh… I, I currently work in the civil service for the police, which is very different to what I did beforehand.
I used to work– When I was on “The Traitors,” I worked for, uh, MPs, which are British members of Parliament who represent constituencies, and I was the jack of all trades behind the scenes doing speeches and analysis and briefing and stuff like that. But now I have time split between my current job and my history podcast, “Pint Sized History,” uh, which is a…
Yeah, I think we were talking earlier and you said it was a labor of love, and then that’s exactly what it is. Yeah.
Zach Elwood: Where can people find it?
Zack Davies: Uh, they can find it on any platform, Spotify, YouTube, Apple, whatever you like. I think, I think it submits to everything if you go through Spotify. So yeah, wherever you might fancy- Mm-hmm
finding a bit of history with some beers being downed, that’s probably- Yeah, some comedy … that’s probably your best bet.
Zach Elwood: Some jokes.
Zack Davies: Comedy, beers- Yeah … history, yep. Yeah. Amateur historians. We don’t really know exactly what we’re talking about most of the time, like some of the other podcasts, but I think that’s what makes it so charming.
Zach Elwood: Yeah. I watched a few episodes. I learned a few things and had a few laughs, so.
Zack Davies: Nice. Any favorites?
Zach Elwood: Uh, I can’t remember. I– It, it was, it was just a few clips. It was, uh-
Zack Davies: Oh,
Zach Elwood: what was it? Sorry. Not a great promotion for your, for your podcast if I
Zack Davies: can’t remember. Yeah. That is s- uh, an unsurprising, uh, occurrence for people who say they’ve watched our podcast.
Zach Elwood: No, no, no.
Zack Davies: Which one was it? Oh, yeah. It
Zach Elwood: was short clips. I, I can’t remember. It was, it was, it was something- Yeah, yeah, yeah … about a war in England, you know, that’s, but I, you know, I got… It’s my own fault. I got too many things I, I consume and running through my head. Yeah. But it was good. I, I did like it.
Zack Davies: Cool.
Glad you, glad you enjoyed it.
Zach Elwood: Um, and you, yeah, and you, so you worked, it was actually when you, when your job came up on The Traitors in the very first episode, I was like, “Oh, this guy, I, I think he’s gonna be one of the better players just because of the nature of your, your job.” Um-
Zack Davies: Yeah, absolutely …
Zach Elwood: because you de- you de- you were used to dealing with a lot of kind of political thinking and perceptions and that kind of stuff, right?
Zack Davies: Yeah. I guess when you work in politics it’s, uh, it sounds a bit, uh, pig-headed saying this, um, but yeah, I think working politics, it, it, it does have an innate benefit when I think you’re on a show like The Traitors, ’cause politics is quite social. A lot of the time, uh, you’re looking between the lines at things that aren’t being said and, and how you, you kinda analyze things that are being said or aren’t.
Um, so I think, yeah, I think there’s definitely a lot of experience, probably one of the reasons I got on the show was ’cause of my job, ’cause I think it sort of leans itself into the round table and, um, the politicking between, like, the different cliques that emerge, and there was definitely times where I was basically running campaigns in the castle trying to get certain people voted out like, uh, Antony or Charlotte, who I just knew weren’t traitors, but knew that they didn’t like me, so I had to get them out, uh, uh, get them out of there for my own gain.
It was very Machiavellian and, and I was, yeah, I think I said, um, something along the lines of, “You, you might not be a traitor, but you’re a detrimental faithful,” which, which is quite a, quite a nasty thing to say, maybe.
Zach Elwood: Um- Oh, yeah. A few pe- yeah, I think I remember a few people saying that, like, uh, “I don’t know if you’re a traitor, but you’re not a great faithful,” or something like that.
Yeah.
Zack Davies: Yeah. It’s an easy cop-out to get someone, g- get rid of someone that you don’t like. I think that’s, like, the, uh, the diplomatic tone that people use.
Zach Elwood: Hmm. Okay. Well let’s come back to that, uh, minute strategy. Um, I was curious, when you ended up watching the show after you, you know, exited the show and, and watched it later, were there any things about how things played out that you were surprised by, like the, you know, that Harry was a traitor or how it played out at the very end, the endgame?
Zack Davies: Yeah. I think there’s a clip of me reacting to, uh, finding out Harry was a traitor- … and I go, like, it’s like the most high-pitched like gasp I’ve ever produced in my life. Uh, so I didn’t know, and I didn’t know he wa- until he was a traitor, but then w- I guess when you find out and you go back and you look at certain things that happened throughout the, the course of the show, it makes you think that, “Oh, I guess it all sort of makes sense.”
Uh, Andrew was not too- I guess, ’cause when I read it, I saw it was Andrew and Harry left, and Andrew was not that surprising to me. I had my suspicions ’cause of the round table the night before. Uh, but Harry just shocked me. However- Mm … that being said, I think if I was still in there, and this sounds really obnoxious and arrogant to think it, I think I would’ve got him at the end.
Zach Elwood: Mm.
Zack Davies: And so there were, there, there were a number of giveaways throughout those last two episodes, ’cause I think he started getting a bit nervous and complacent and then dropped the ball sometimes, and I think that they are smart, cool to maybe get rid of me before, before the house of cards came toppling down, which it didn’t.
Zach Elwood: Yeah. I was– I wanted to ask you about specifically, you know, if you were in Jazz’s shoes at the very end, I, I was surprised that he didn’t make… And, and that’s the thing, you never know if they cut these things out or edit them or whatever, but I was surprised he didn’t make more, um, m-more of an influential, uh, a attempt to influence Molly and explain to her, you know, why, his reasoning for why he thought it was Harry, including, like, at the very end, do you think he, he could have worked in, like, “Molly, you know I’m a h- you know, if I’m voting to get somebody out at this point- Yeah, yeah
you gotta know I’m 100% faithful,” or these kinds of things, you know? That whole
Zack Davies: there’s no reason behind it, logically, so why would I be doing it?
Zach Elwood: A quick explanation of the situation we’re talking about here. In the final endgame, with three players left, there was a Traitor, Harry, who was close with one of the Faithfuls, Molly. And another Faithful, Jaz, was trying to get Molly to vote to remove Harry so that the Faithfuls could win. But Molly voted to remove Jaz instead, which allowed Harry to win. There were a lot of factors here; one was that Molly and Harry were so close during the show and she trusted them. Another factor, as Zack talks about in here, is that a lot of people viewed Jaz with suspicion. Apparently also, when Molly voted to remove Jaz, it wasn’t that she necessarily thought he was a Traitor; she apparently perhaps thought all three of them were Faithfuls, but she was forced to vote for someone so she chose Jaz. Okay back to the talk.
Zack Davies: I’m, I’m good friends with Molly. I think it’s a question she faces quite a lot, and I think honestly it’s, um, I think it’s important what people haven’t seen when they’re watching the show, and it, it looks very obvious and very clear. But for many episodes up until that final, everyone thought Jazz was a traitor.
Mm-hmm. Um, I was one of the few people alongside E- Evie who didn’t think that, um, ’cause I thought he was just acting too obviously faithful. Um, but there was a lot of suspicion being cast on him, and the way he went about putting forward his feelings about who it possibly… He, uh, unbelievably good at internalizing his thoughts and, like, figuring it out based on, like, gut, innate instinct.
But in terms of actually putting the thoughts out there and communicating why and how to who, um, I think he really lacked that. So which is why you see situations happen at the end where it couldn’t possibly be him, but because Harry’s a slicker charmer than, than he is, it makes it a lot harder for people who should be voting one way to actually vote that way.
Um, so I don’t, I don’t, uh, blame Molly for that. I think, you know- Right … the, the show, you know, really portrayed Jazz as being this like all-seeing, all-knowing oracle, but that was like far- It’s so
Zach Elwood: edited. Yeah.
Zack Davies: Yeah. It’s- It’s kinda, it was kind of… It, it wasn’t… I guess in the sense of his own personal journey throughout the show was accurate.
But in terms of what we all saw in the castle going up to that moment, it was very far from the truth. Like you see- Mm … there’s a part where, uh, he confesses to me and Evie that Harry has to be a traitor, and it looks really clear when you’re watching the TV edit of it And, and it makes a lot of sense based on his actions.
But we were sitting in that room for about, like, 20 minutes and, and Jazz was being so strange with us- Right, right … and we couldn’t, like, look past it, and it felt, it felt like, oh, my God, he was t- completely telling the truth. But, like, at that moment in time, Evie and I were like, “What the fuck is he talking about?”
Zach Elwood: Right. Right. Well, he wasn’t the be- he clearly wasn’t the best at advocating for himself. Like, a l- a lot of his explanations were like… You know, he got, he got some things right, but he also just had, like, weird, uh, kind of unusual and hard to justify, you know, suppositions that he would throw in and, and- Yeah
it did kind of come across, like, awkward in a, in a lot of, in situations, yeah.
Zack Davies: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think there was, like, one round table where he w- where he, um, he voted for someone. It, he got offered a chance to explain why it wasn’t him, and he was just like, “No. No comment.”
Shit.
Zach Elwood: Yeah. Yeah.
Zack Davies: And, you know, I guess that, I guess it went well for him.
Zach Elwood: I’m curious, um, I mean, Har- do you feel like a factor in Harry kinda getting a pass is ’cause he, because he was so young, and I think he came across as so unassuming to people? I felt like that was a factor in him, you know, escaping as much notice.
Zack Davies: I can, I can safely say that I completely judged him wrong. I thought he was an idiot. Um, I thought he was an imbecile, um, when I first met him at the… ‘Cause, ’cause he was voting for me, which was actually really smart just ’cause I maybe… I don’t know. He, he kind of threw me off his scent completely by voting for me immediately, like the second, third episode, then keep gunning for me.
Um, so I was like, “This guy is, he hasn’t got an ou- he hasn’t got a clue.” When in reality he’s, like, completely puppet mastering me and setting me off like a, like a, like his personal hound.
Zach Elwood: Well, he did… Yeah, that, that was the thing. I, I, I misjudged him, too, because at the beginning I was like, “Oh, this guy’s gonna be a horrible traitor.”
Like, he’s too… He, he comes across so unassuming and, and naive, but he, he was a much, much better player and much more strategizing than I would’ve given him credit for based- Yeah … on initial, uh, feelings. So I think that, that helped him get a pass where it’s like… And also, Molly, they were both also quite young, too, so there was maybe a little bit of bond before, between them there, too, and yeah, that kind of thing.
Yeah.
Zack Davies: Yeah, they were good friends in the castle, those two, which makes it even harder for Jazz to have any sort of breakthrough. I think people underestimate the importance of friendships and your allies and, and, and different groups of people that you socialize with in the castle as to how influential and powerful they can be in the later game.
Like, I think Leanne from Season 3 pretty much won because she was the most popular c- contestant on the show. Hmm. I haven’t seen that yet. Possibly… Oh, right. I s- I s- sorry, man. Massive spoilers there. Oh, yeah.
Zach Elwood: That’s okay.
Zack Davies: Yeah. Um- You might wanna put me saying spoiler or, or something before that, but
Zach Elwood: yeah.
No, I, I kinda, kinda goes with the territory, I think. We, we assume there’s gonna be some spoilers, yeah. Um, yeah. I, I wanna get back, I wanna get back to that, uh, about the, the friendships and, uh, uh, like or dislike of people, but I, I wanted to ask you about this meta level question that I was curious about where, uh, I was curious- You know, watching the show, you don’t know how much of the contestants’, uh, behaviors might be influenced by things that are not mentioned.
You know, for example, like were there other financial benefits for like staying extra days or, or, or there may be, uh, just the way that, the way that the, uh, they might set things up that you don’t really see as, as the audience. I was curious, do, do you feel like, you know, watching it, do you think the audience by and large understands what the motivations are for people?
Is it, is it pretty much on the table, like what the real motivations are?
Zack Davies: I would say so, yeah, partially. I think mostly the, the motivations are clear. Like, you know, you, you, you wanna win the game and win the money at the end. There’s
Zach Elwood: nothing major, there’s nothing major that the producers are hiding, uh, about, uh, strateg- strategies or- No,
Zack Davies: no, no
Zach Elwood: incentives?
Zack Davies: You, you get paid a stipend per day, so like you get like an extra 100 quid per day if you stay in there- Okay,
Zach Elwood: so not much. Yeah, yeah …
Zack Davies: which is, which is, which is not motivating enough to-
Zach Elwood: Yeah.
Zack Davies: Yeah … you know, really like blow, blow the game or, you know, um, keep yourself in. But I th- I think the motivations people have, like when they go in there and think, “Wow, a huge reality TV show,” they think like Love Island back in 2014, ’15, I think it was, when if you went on there you were just set for life and you’d get like a BoohooMan deal or something like that.
And so I think there’s like, there, there’s a bit of personal greed that comes into it, I think, at times with the, with the game playing to stay in for as long as you can-
Zach Elwood: Right …
Zack Davies: to garner that like online following later. Um, and I think thankfully for our season it was still wasn’t, there wasn’t that sort of element to it.
Um, there was partially like you wanna stay in there, you know, you wanna be on TV longer and have this, this incredible experience, get closer to winning the money, and that’s the ultimate goal. But I think we see in like season three and season four, like some of the brand deals that people are getting now, it makes it far more attractive to people who might just be interested in it, not, not for the game itself or for the actual- Right
you know, the thrill of being there, but more so for the potential lucrative, uh, brand deals that can come out of it afterwards, ’cause it now has that sort of platform to do that, especially after the celebrity traitors. Um, so yeah, I think there’s, there is, there is that sort of unspoken, um, desire to stay in longer for that reason, that it might be your big break.
And I think people across all seasons maybe have, have even had that. I can say personally, I, I, I knew from the start I was never going to be a reality TV star, because I have such a big mouth and I can’t stop myself from saying stupid things. And I’ve got in trouble with the BBC ’cause, uh, they, they keep tabs on you afterwards, and they, they do some of your PR and, uh, make sure you’re not saying anything you shouldn’t say.
And I’ve got in trouble with them more times than I can count. I don’t think it’s the same case for other people.
Zach Elwood: I, I was curious too with the editing, you know, obviously like we’re seeing, like we talked about, we’re seeing like such a small snippet of all the stuff that happens on the show. But do you think by and large the, you know, I, I real- like you said, like the jazz thing, there can be differences.
But do you think by and large they did a pretty good job like showing the, the twists and turns of the game, you know, from your s- your perspective?
Zack Davies: Yeah. I think there’s, like there’s a bit of a main character syndrome that comes into it though, when you look at the edit and you think, like my personal… I think everyone that probably goes on the show is a bit narcissistic, so every- everyone thinks like, you know, “There’s this massive story involving me, this personal story,” which I think is so important.
And, and I had that myself obviously as well. I, I-
Zach Elwood: You’re like, “Where’s all my footage?”
Zack Davies: Yeah, I had these, like, intense, uh, debriefs in the talking heads room, you know, where they, they cut to you in that chair, and you’re sat there and you’re talking about it. And I had these– I, I was basically having a mental breakdown on TV.
Um, and I had a panic attack during a roundtable-
Zach Elwood: Oh …
Zack Davies: which was, um, and I had to be- Like Brian … taken out the room. Hey, yeah, Brian didn’t have a panic attack. He just, he, he just- Self-destructed. Yeah, I don’t know what happened to him. Yeah, he self-destructed. Yeah. Yeah. He’s, he’s not anxious or any… I don’t think he has anxiety or anything like that.
He just, uh, he c- he completely melt down.
Zach Elwood: Yeah.
Zack Davies: Um-
Zach Elwood: So you had a, you had an actual- It was just like
Zack Davies: Chernobyl 1986 in there.
Zach Elwood: Yeah. Yeah. So you, you had an actual panic attack. I mean, I, I’ve talked about, I, I, I’ve struggled with anxiety. I’ve had really bad debilitating- Yeah … panic attacks myself, so I know how bad they can be.
Um-
Zack Davies: Yeah, I, um, I’ve struggled with OCD and anxiety for the last, like, 15 years, and probably my whole life before that, but just was never diagnosed. Um, ’cause I don’t think you’re, like, suddenly exposed. I think it’s like a build up and build up. Um, so yeah, I, I, I was really going through it quite badly, ’cause obviously the environment is really tuned to bring out the worst mental side of you and the most, um, like, the most irrational, emotional side of you, um, ’cause that just makes great TV.
Um- So yeah, during one of the round tables, I think it was the one where we got Paul out, he was really trying to fuck with my head on the way into that round table. And I remember y- you get, you get sat in the bar before you go out in a line to the round table. You know, the iconic scene where you all walk down the, the hallway in single file.
And, uh, there’s no cameras at this point in time. It’s just everyone in the bar. You can’t talk ’cause you’re getting ready and herded before you go off to the round table. And Paul and I, about an hour before that, had had, uh, a scene which did make it on TV, which is us in the hallway and me saying, “I think it’s you.
I’m voting for you tonight. I want you gone. I think you’re, you’re” essentially emotionally manipulating people. And he, and he was just really trying to pull on my heartstrings and crocodile tears. And when we got into that bar room, there were no cameras, but for about an hour off TV he was just staring at me, being like, “It’s not me.
It’s not me.”
Zach Elwood: Oh my God.
Zack Davies: And then I went into the round table just freaking the fuck out. Uh, it was cold in there, so my– I started hyperventilating. I had to leave. Um, I was sat outside with some of the, uh, the welfare team, uh, doing deep breaths and trying to take my mind off it, and I was really in, in quite an intense panic attack.
Zach Elwood: Hmm.
Zack Davies: And eventually, 10 minutes later, I went back in. Um, and, and that was not televised, and there was this whole mental health journey I had in the show where, where I kind of went from feeling really, like, lonely and, and weak and depressed at points to, to feeling really strong by the end of it mentally.
Um-
Zach Elwood: Hmm …
Zack Davies: and that was, that just made none of the cut. So I felt like my- Oh … entire personal story that I had there just didn’t make any… And, and it would’ve, uh, my, my problem with that is not that, you know, I think that it needs to be there, but the comments I got afterwards about being really obnoxious and not listening and, and being f- so focused on some people and, and some really horrible comments about me actually would’ve- Right
it would’ve been painted in in a much more reasonable context when you’d see some of the clips of, like, “Oh, he actually, you know, he wasn’t very healthy.” But they’re not gonna- Going
Zach Elwood: through some stuff, yeah …
Zack Davies: yeah, but they’re not gonna- But, uh- … show that on the BBC, are they?
Zach Elwood: Well, that, uh, that would’ve made great, I, I would think that would make great television, and also a chance to talk about the, the stress of it and such.
But yeah, I mean, props to you for doing that. Uh, uh, ’cause I, I think I’d be afraid to go on a show like that precisely because I think that would, I think I’d be afraid of that happening to me. Yeah. So props to you for, uh, working through it. I lied. Yeah.
Zack Davies: I lied quite a bit about how, just how bad my mental health was to get- Hey, well, good job
to get, to get on the show. And I, I said, “Oh, you know, uh, mental health? Well, a bit of anxiety maybe. Uh, oh, uh, uh, not, not, not much though. No, I’ve never had a panic attack before.” And then the hee-hoo, hee-hoo, hee-hoo. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just as I, as I get in there. Hey. Like one foot on the computer desk.
Zach Elwood: Props, it worked out, it worked out for you.
Um, I would think they’d be more likely to put you on the show, but, uh, yeah.
Zack Davies: Yeah. Uh- I think, uh, British TV’s gone a bit, uh, really heavy into safeguarding because of- Mm … some high-profile events with, uh, Caroline Flack- Ah … and Mike Foss. There’s– I can’t remember his name, but he was on Love Island, the two people that committed suicide.
Um- Oh,
Zach Elwood: I see. Yeah, they wanna be- So- … really careful on that front. Yeah, so- Yeah,
Zack Davies: I see … so British reality TV has taken, like, a, a far more, uh, safeguard-y course.
Zach Elwood: Responsible. Yeah, okay. That’s– Well, that’s nice. Uh, that’s a good one. Yeah. Uh, so yeah, I want to ask you, um, you know, if y- obviously you, you took certain approaches in there.
It was, it was remarked how you, uh, you, you came on a bit strong at the beginning, you know, with, uh, talking to people about your, your thoughts and your accusations, and you were a bit loose, you know, and, and people talked about your personality in the beginning. I’m, I’m curious, um, do you have any… If you were gonna do it over again, uh, are there any strategies that you would take, uh, about approaches that you would majorly change up?
Zack Davies: I think the, the s- the strategy to take is play really dumb, and I think thankfully for me, I, I naturally play quite dumb. I don’t think there, uh, I don’t think there is, like, a plan B for me. I think my, my plan A is my only plan, and that is, like, being unapologetically myself, which gets me in a lot of trouble often, both, uh, you know, on the TV show, then also my personal life and my work life.
So, um, I don’t think I, I have the, the ability to play it any other way, probably ’cause I’m, like, ADHD and probably neurodivergent as well, by that same metric. So I think there’s the, the only, yeah, the only strategy I have is that. But if I, if I could control it, I would definitely play far more like, “Oh, it’s them?
Oh, I never thought it would’ve been them.” Y- yeah, and keep my suspicions very close to my chest, and, and, and probably accuse Faithfuls constantly. If I was a Faithful, I would, I would probably go for accusing the Faithfuls to be an ally to the Traitors, and then eventually get down the line hopefully, ’cause they’ll see that I’m just causing problems for the Faithful, and that it’s better to keep me in than not
Zach Elwood: Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Uh,
Zack Davies: I want to- ‘Cause
Zach Elwood: it really, I
Zack Davies: guess the only thing that matters at the end of the day is if, if you can get to the final, and then that’s where the game actually really starts. Um-
Zach Elwood: Yeah, I mean, to, to your point, it’s like the major theme that pops out of, I’ve watched two seasons. I’ve one watched, I’ve watched an American season, and I watched your season.
But the thing that really stands out for a pattern is, like, how often people focus on people that just do anything unusual, like whether it’s like, you know, talking, uh, accusing other people early, or whether it’s, like, being anxious, or whether it’s whatever. It, it’s a range of things that just stand out to people because people are looking for anything when it comes to, like, the banishment.
They’re- Mm-hmm … because there’s so little information to go on. So anybody that stands out in a little bit of way, like for example, like just your one comment, I think it was like the first or second episode, it was like just a joke you made about sleeping well tonight. And people, because there’s so little to go on, people were, people were like, “That was an unusual comment.
Is he saying that because he’s maybe a traitor?” And it was just such a weak lead. But like, there’s so little to go on, so anything unusual that somebody might say stands out. So it’s almost like to making yourself nondescript-
Zack Davies: Yeah …
Zach Elwood: is, like, the best strategy. But also, I mean, that’s exactly what the traitors do, is like they’re trying to just make themselves nondescript too.
So, you know, trying not to get banished and, and trying not to be perceived as a traitor and not go out early, it’s like you don’t want to stand out in some major way by doing something unusual early on- Mm … is, it seems to me like that’s a major, a major mistake that people would make, is just acting in unusual ways.
Yeah. You got by, you got by with it, but I think in a different version of reality, you, they might have focused more on you for, for some of these things you were doing early on.
Zack Davies: Yeah, absolutely. The, the, the kind of flip side for me is, um, if it, if it wasn’t Brian that went out on that round table, I’m almost certain it would’ve been me.
Um- Mm. ‘Cause we had, there was the exact same reasons between two of us as to why we were both, um, ’cause I think I had three votes for that round table, which was way less than the six that the other three had. Um, but for the exact same reasons as me, that I was just strange and acting weirdly, it, it could’ve been very equally- Yeah, weirdly
yeah. Perceived
Zach Elwood: to be.
Zack Davies: Yeah. Ab- abnormal, I guess. Um- Yeah … and, and that was the exact reason that Brian got eliminated, and then no one obviously realized that personality does not dictate whether you are or aren’t a traitor or faithful. Um-
Zach Elwood: Right …
Zack Davies: so, so he basically took a big bullet for me to be able to get as far as I did in the show, ’cause it- Mm
I think it enabled people to look at it a bit differently and think, “Okay, maybe if they’re actually just weird, they’re just weird and, and not a faith- and not a traitor.”
Zach Elwood: Well, not only did you avoid the getting banished part, I, if I were a traitor, I would’ve killed you off very early because I w- I would’ve been like, “This guy’s, uh, more sophisticated than, than, than a lot of the opponents.”
Th- that was another reason I was surprised you lasted as long as you did, ’cause I- Yeah … you would’ve been one of my first people I, I got out of there.
Zack Davies: Yeah, I think people just thought I was… And people kept calling me a silly Billy the entire way through. I think when we wanted to call someone an idiot in, in the castle, we kept referring to people as silly Billies instead, ’cause maybe it’s a bit more diplomatic.
It’s a very, it’s a very English term. Um, so yeah, like whenever… I, I basically had the silly Billy card for about five episodes, and people thought I was like a, a, a conspiracy theorist when, when I am a flat realist. Like, I don’t care. I don’t, I don’t believe in any conspiracy theories, but somehow I got voted the most likely to believe in conspiracy theories.
I was like, “Me?”
Zach Elwood: Right. “
Zack Davies: Over Tracy, who’s a psychic?” Like, why?
Zach Elwood: Yeah.
Zack Davies: Like, I couldn’t, I could not believe that happened, but th- that worked as, as great cover for, I guess- Hmm … maybe being a bit more, um, analytical behind the scenes. Um, I think- Yeah,
Zach Elwood: I wanted to-
Zack Davies: Yeah.
Zach Elwood: Sorry. Oh, go ahead.
Zack Davies: No, no, no. Go ahead
Zach Elwood: Uh, so I, I was gonna talk about, you know, I, s- I, I was working on an episode that was gonna talk about some of my thoughts about indicators that someone was a faithful or a traitor, just kinda summarizing my thoughts.
And this– I’ve been thinking about this for a while because I was thinking about social deduction games a couple years ago when somebody, uh- Mm. I told you that somebody hired me to do some consulting for them. They were going on a show, and, uh, I– they wouldn’t tell me what show it was, but it, it turned out it was, um, “The Traitors,” the, the, the, uh, Dutch version.
Zack Davies: Ah.
Zach Elwood: So,
Zack Davies: uh- The original
Zach Elwood: version. So- The, uh- Yeah … De,
Zack Davies: De Verraders.
Zach Elwood: Yeah, yeah. And I haven’t gotten permission from her to say who it was, but so I, I, she– I’m still working on, uh, getting that. I might talk to her for the podcast eventually. But, um, so I’ve been thinking about social deduction games for a while, and then recently got into finally watching “The Traitors.”
I’d never seen “The Traitors”. Um, but, so I’ve been thinking about these, these indicators, and I’m, I was curious to get your thoughts for some of this. Uh, I mean, one thing that stood out to me as far as, uh, strategies for deducing who to vote, you know, who to banish, who to think were traitors, I think a lotta, I think the strategy a lotta people have is, is completely reversed of what it should be, because a lot of people- Yeah, absolutely
are focused on, they’re focused on like what are the signs that someone is a traitor, but they should be focused first on what are the signs that someone is a faithful, because I think there’s certain things that people do that make them quite unlikely to be traitors. It can just be like various things, and that I wanted to talk to you about a few of those specific things, but I’m curious at what you think of that overall strategy as like focus first on– Because there is so little information, especially at first.
It’s like we should, we should be focused on like the things that people are doing that make them unlikely to be traitors, and then if you’re gonna pick randomly for who to vote off, it should be people outside of that group, basically.
Zack Davies: Yeah, I think, um, I, I would be a pessimist and argue that I think both, um, looking for signs in either of the two is, has the, the same outcome, which is you’re n- you’re never going to find what you think someone is based on what you’re looking for and what the metrics you have to, to do that are.
So I think like for a faithful, probably look for someone a bit more nervous, um, a bit more, uh, maybe, maybe voting with the herd or, or voting for people that aren’t traitors as like clear signs that they are. But I, I just think, um, that could also be the sign of a, of a, of a great traitor who’s purposely trying to look like a faithful, uh, in a really skilled way.
So I think the, there probably are parameters that you could generally set which can give you a good idea of who’s who. Um, and, you know, there were people that I knew were faithfuls, and was completely unsurprised when they obviously were faithfuls at the end. I think the majority of people that we, that I voted for as traitors at, with, with an inkling of the idea that they were actually faithfuls, turned out to be faithfuls.
Um, so, so yeah. I guess it, it- But in that same metric as Harry in our season played completely like a faithful the entire time, like he didn’t take money, which for me is a red flag . Um, so yeah, I, I don’t know. I, I just think-
Zach Elwood: Well, yeah. Go ahead …
Zack Davies: I just think it’s quite tricky when you’re put in that situation because the game plan feels like it goes out the window.
I think the main thing that matters is securing your own personal survival. So it’s less of identifying who’s who, it’s more waiting for the show to feed you the cues, and more keeping a strong group of friends around you to keep you in till that point, till when you get there. Um, you have to do a few things along the way, like you have to shout some accusations.
You can’t be completely silent. You have to throw out some accusations and hope you get quite lucky. Um, but I think it’s so luck based to get to the point where you actually get fed something, uh, that you’re just relying on, on having the people around you to actually have your back before then. Um, but yeah, I think, I think there are, there are certain- Yeah
there are certain things which, which can be, can be giveaways too.
Zach Elwood: Well, I think, yeah, let’s– So I’m gonna talk about some specifics and, and to be clear-
Zack Davies: I can tell you if I agree or not
Zach Elwood: Yeah, exactly. That I wanna get your take on them as somebody who’s lived through this. Um, and I real- you know, the, I wanna say too, it’s like, it’s not like, it’s not like I think these are necessarily powerful.
I think some of them can be, but it’s also like, it, it’s also the fact that you’re operating in such a low information environment where it’s like, well, if we’re gonna v- if I’m gonna vote for somebody to banish them, I’m gonna, I, I’m gonna base it on these like slight indicators I got, even if they’re like far from highly reliable, right?
It’s, I think- Mm-hmm … that’s a part of it too. But I think there’s also the added difficulty of like, even if it was early in the game and I felt highly confident, like these people are faithful, so I’m gonna vote for one of these people, you know, to banish them. Even if I was highly confident, it’s not like I could like easily convince people of that because it, it’s like, A, it might be weak information, B, you’re gonna be suspicious for trying to get other people to, to vote for those people- Mm-hmm
and you, you make yourself a target. So there’s a number of reasons why these things could be hard to use, but I, I’ll, I’ll give you an example of some stuff I’m talking about. So for example, so one of the, uh, patterns that I think is, i- is h- highly likely or significantly likely to mark somebody as a, as a faithful is doing something that’s like overtly strange and suspicious.
Like, so I’ll give you an example. Like when Di- like when Diane, uh, vo- who, when they voted, when they voted for somebody and Diane v- uh, was, was correct that that person, um, was a, uh, was a faithful I think, uh, and, and, and they had banished her, um, and she said she was a Faithful. Daenen was like, “Yes.” And everybody was like-
that was a, that was an unusual, uh, unusual thing to do. Maybe that was, like, a sign she’s a traitor. But to me, like immediately, it’s like a traitor would never have done that weird thing that theoretically marks you.
Zack Davies: Yeah. Like, ‘
Zach Elwood: cause, ’cause it’s a combination of two things. It’s like things that Faithfuls might conceivably do that a traitor would be unlikely to do, and then B, things that a traitor would have no incentive to do because it’s just so weird.
Like a, a traitor would never be like, “Yes,” and then be like, “Oh, w- why did I, uh, you know, why did I…” Then they have to, like, explain it. It ju- it just wouldn’t make sense. So it’s like, it’s these things that, like, would, would in no way help a traitor to put on, right? It’s like, uh, that, that’s one example of what I’m thinking of.
Uh- Yeah.
Zack Davies: But I’m curious what you make of that. Yeah, no, I, I, I agree on that one. I think, um, the, the, uh, I guess to that extent it’s the instinctive behaviors where people just, like, sort of- drop the facade and they act like, you know, human beings do. I think- Right, exuberant … tra- traitors are far more likely to be constantly maintaining composure, know, uh, plotting their reactions to when someone reveals they’re a Faithful, “Oh, head in hands,” that sort of moment.
Whereas Faithfuls are like, “I’ve told you, I fucking told you,” that sort of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I think, I think that’s a good
Zach Elwood: one. Yeah. So the Diane thing, yeah, I think, I think that’s, um, it’s kinda like to me it’s like if you can assemble a few of those kinda clues for a few players and be like, “I’m highly confident that at least these set of people are Faithful based on these few clues I’ve picked up,” that at least gives you, like, a basis to be like, “These are some people I can trust,” you know?
And that’s, that’s who I’m gonna use to form my inner circle. So for example, if I saw Diane do that and some other things I’m gonna talk about in a second, if I saw some of these clues from people and I felt like these ma- th- these things make it significantly more likely these people are Faithfuls, that I’d be like, “Okay, I’m gonna try to, you know, get in good with those people.”
But then, then, then again, theoretically that’s, as a traitor, that’s also the same strategy I would, I would maybe take too is where, where it’s like, uh, those, ’cause those people, the more exuberant people or whatever, are also the people that, uh, people are gonna trust more. But anyway, I’ll, I’ll leave that aside for now.
I wanna talk about another pattern which you, you touched on, the, um, kinda like the highly emotional, uh, you know, uh, kind of swearing that, “I’m a Faithful,” kind of behavior which we, you know, that’s another pattern I’ve seen is, like, it’s pretty unlikely… I think Paul was the main exception in the two seasons I, I’d watched, where someone was very exuberantly swearing that they were, uh, you know, were, were a Faithful, uh, when they, when they weren’t.
Like, the usual pattern is, like, Faithfuls make all sorts of promises that they’re, they’re Faithfuls- Yeah …
Zack Davies: and
Zach Elwood: say things like, “You know, you’re gonna, you’re gonna vote me, you’re gonna banish me, and I’m gonna stand up there and tell you I, I’m a Faithful, and you’re gonna be very disappointed, like, I swear.”
I mean, one guy on the American show even said something like, “I swear on my children I’m a Faithful.” You know, like- Now
Zack Davies: it would, it would- That’s what, that’s what Paul
Zach Elwood: did last season. Yeah. So he’s, uh- And I think he’s, he’s kind of, I mean, Paul, Paul even, like, cried or at least put on the appearance of crying which is also very unusual for- uh, traitors, I think.
Like it’s an outlier
Zack Davies: because- Yeah, I’ve, I’ve called, I’ve called Paul associate pa- associate pat before. And, and I’ve been told off for calling him that, but I completely maintain it.
Zach Elwood: Hey, you know, he’s, you know, you could have, you could, you could have some of those m- personality aspects. Um, but I do think it’s like, uh, you know, if I, if I’m looking for clues, and again, we’re talking about operating in a low information environment where like, you know, we’re just looking for like little things even if we think they’re far from 100% reliable.
If I saw somebody like crying from the stress of the situation, you know, I’d be like, “Oh, I think they’re quite unlikely to be a, uh, a traitor.” And if I saw somebody like making dramatic over and over, you know, statements about how they swear they’re a Faithful and they, they seem very exuberant about it and unrestrained, getting back to that thing we talked about, like Diane being exuberant and being like, “Yes.”
It’s like some of that behavior stands out to me as much more likely to be Faithful. But I’m curious for your take on that.
Zack Davies: Yeah. I, I think for our season especially, that is, that’s the case. Um, the first season in the UK, which I don’t think you’ve watched yet, I’m not entirely sure. No. But, um, there was constant crying the entire way through.
Everyone was crying. Uh, even the Tra- The Traitors too? Even the Traitors were crying, yeah. But one Traitor’s- What were they
Zach Elwood: crying about? Like acting or were they genuinely upset?
Zack Davies: Uh, I think they found it really emotionally… I, so, so I think the problem with the first season is they got too invested in the game emotionally.
Uh, they weren’t able to, to see what the game was. You know, they weren’t have, able to have the self-awareness during the game ’cause they didn’t have the hindsight of being a later season who had seen how- Ah … the game works and how it pits- Yeah … each other against each other. They, so they were really taking everything personally.
When someone died they were like-
Zach Elwood: Right … “
Zack Davies: I can’t fucking believe that he’s killed that per- What? … the Traitor killed that person.” As if they actually thought that they, they had died.
Zach Elwood: Um- Wow.
Zack Davies: So in our season we had the hindsight of that and we were far more like cold, and logical, and emotional. I say logical, not very logical at all actually.
Um, but yeah, there, there were two instances besides Paul of people crying, and both times they were Faithfuls. Um, so, so yeah, for our specific season, uh, which there can be variations and, and, and fluctuations throughout the seasons, people might have far more emotional seasons than others, the people that cried typically were Faithfuls
Zach Elwood: What about the swearing, uh, you know, uh, extensive s- you know, “I swear that I’m a Faithful,” these kinds of statements.
Do you, do you have any thoughts on that?
Zack Davies: Yeah. I, I, I agree it’s probably a good sign that you’re a Faithful. Uh, Traitors could probably rehearse it and, and make it sound convincing, and I, I think they can do it- Yeah … to a certain extent. Um, but I don’t think it will matter if you do that. That’s the only problem.
I think saying you’re a Faithful these days after four seasons of the show, uh, has very- Right … has very little effect on changing people’s minds. Um-
Zach Elwood: Well, that’s, that’s what I wanna– I actually am curious to watch. Specifically what you’re talking about is, like, as the seasons go on, players get better and more balanced, and they, they think about all the things that have gone on the previous seasons, and that’s an interesting way to view it.
It’s like people are becoming more game theory optimal, which to me would, would equate to, like, everybody becoming much more, like, subdued and harder to read, and all these kinds of
Zack Davies: things. Yeah. Y- you’d have thought that, but I haven’t seen Season Four. Supposedly it was the worst group of Faithfuls yet.
Zach Elwood: Oh, I gotta, I gotta see this. So- I gotta see this …
Zack Davies: apparently it was a very good season. Um, I obviously think our season was the best. I think we had the hindsight of seeing the first season and then coming in with, with, with cool characters. Um, but yeah. I, I think interesting you say that. I think people don’t get any better at the game.
I think, I think they- Hmm … still just fall back on, uh, emotion rather than logic, and they make the same mistakes that every series the Tray- um, uh, Traitors makes in every different country, in every different language. Th- Wow … they’re still the same things because people ultimately need to, to have the herd mentality and need to find things to, to cling onto, and then you have that for five, six, seven episodes before people start going, “Mm, actually this person’s said very little.
They’re quite influential in the backgrounds but very quiet at the round table. Uh, it’s, it might be them.” But people just go, “He’s the loudest, he’s got the most obvious. It, it’ll be the most easy to get votes for him. Um, let’s go for them.”
Zach Elwood: Yeah.
Zack Davies: But yeah. I think, I think, uh, a lot of the time when, in my experience when I played it, maybe other people from different series might have a similar, similar sort of take on it, but I played it by numbers game quite a lot.
I tried to, I tried to, I tried to, uh, look at it as who’s going to vote for who, and who’s gonna vote for me, and what numbers and what people do I need to kind of influence to make sure I achieve the situation where I don’t get voted out, or I make someone else get voted out. Um, so I was just– Yeah. I, I’m, I’m sure people do think about that, but my, my game was ruled at certain points by have I got the numbers?
Have, have I got these people one side, uh, and isolating its cliques and stuff like that. So, um- Yeah.
Zach Elwood: You, you mentioned, uh, I mean, ’cause so much of … We, we kind of brushed over it, but so much of the game, how, how people react in the game is about who they like and who they dislike. You … And I’ve seen that so many times where it’s like the, the
If somebody likes somebody, they’re … Just like in real life, if somebody likes somebody they’re, they’re gonna cut them a lot of slack, they’re gonna trust them more.
Zack Davies: Yeah.
Zach Elwood: If somebody instinctually … So many times in that game some- it seems like s- s- somebody just disliking some- somebody for some reason or other leads them to try to vote them off.
Like, you saw that with Diane- Yeah … and Anthony, where Diane was like, “He cut me in line,” or something in the beginning. Yeah. And she’s like, “That’s why I think, that’s why I think he’s a traitor.” I was like, “That makes no sense.” Like, that, that-
Zack Davies: Yeah, yeah …
Zach Elwood: that thinking. But that, that’s like- That one, that one felt quite charged
how so many people reacted. Yeah. I was
Zack Davies: like- Diane, Diane just immediately, uh, not liking Anthony for literally no reason. I, I think we were all looking at-
Zach Elwood: Yeah …
Zack Davies: going, “That’s a bit, that’s a bit sus.” Um-
Zach Elwood: But I mean, it, it, it’s, it happened so much. I mean, when I watched the American thing it was so much about like, “I don’t like them, so I’m gonna
I think they’re a traitor because of this,” you know?
Zack Davies: Yeah. I, I think the thing that goes unsaid a lot with The Traitors is the unconscious biases that people have towards each other. So, um, typically in the UK seasons, more often than not, people that aren’t white, um, that may have like, you know, uh, Asian origins or Asian heritage, um, or, you know, um, [00:38:00] maybe just generally just non-white people get voted out at a far higher rate than people who are white.
‘Cause I guess the, the innate bias of a, of a white nation is to, is to look at white people and think they’re more trustworthy and, and, and more compassionate and stuff like that. Uh, so yeah, I think, I think- I think all the winners in the UK Traitors have been white, and there’s been, uh, three… I’m trying to calculate it now in my head.
I think there’s been s- uh, eight winners, and they’ve all been white. So, so like there is this like unspoken unconscious bias. I think the, the furthest that someone who wasn’t white got on the show was Jazz in my season. Mm. Um, so yeah, I, I don’t actually know how I’ve gotten to this conversation. Oh,
Zach Elwood: well, we were talk- The Diane,
Zack Davies: the Diane
Zach Elwood: We were talking about the like and, uh, dislike, and even just like whether they’re, you know, aware of it or not.
Yeah. It’s like these, whether these, these small things or even just something as small as like apparently Anthony, you know, like cut her off in that picture or something. It’s like-
Zack Davies: Yeah. But
Zach Elwood: whatev- whatever, whatever it may- It
Zack Davies: was so stupid, yeah …
Zach Elwood: whatever it may be,
Zack Davies: it’s like- He was like, he was like very friendly on the train or something, and then hasn’t said a word to her in the car, so even though you’ve known him for literally like 40- Yeah
48 hours. And, and, and also the- And he’s got no right to speak to you.
Zach Elwood: Right, and also the fact that like people are always more friendly, like when you first meet, and everybody’s putting on their, you know, best face socially. Yeah, exactly, yeah. But then like you, you enter the game or it goes to the second day, and everybody’s much different.
But there’s all these, there’s all these things that people were basing their decisions on that are just like really bad, you know. Uh, but that’s the thing, though. Like, they’re so low information and, and they’re told, “You gotta banish somebody,” so all these like-
Zack Davies: Yeah, it’s tough …
Zach Elwood: random associations, uh, come out.
Um-
Zack Davies: Yeah, I was surprised that me, uh, doing stupid shit didn’t come up immediately, ’cause literally within the first hour of me being there, I don’t know if you, if, if you recall when you watch series of The Traitors, you get lined up as, um, who’s most likely to win, who’s most likely to lose. Yeah. And most, most people put themselves in the middle if they think, you know, that they will last long.
Uh, I was stood next to Jasmine, and she had her arms like up by her side a little bit. And Claudia asked us, “Who wants to be a traitor?” And I thought it’d be funny to knock Jasmine’s arm in the air. As they were filming. I’d known her, I’d known her literally for about 24 hours, maybe less than that, sort of 12 hours.
Um, and was already just taking liberties with, with my fellow show, uh, contestants, trying to like mug them off and make them, make them laugh and stuff like that. So I was surprised that, that my stupid actions didn’t get me in trouble straight away, ’cause it’s a very easy thing for the herd to have their sights on.
Um-
Zach Elwood: Okay. So I wanna, I wanna come back to that, ’cause I did have a, a specific observation or question about that. So the, one of the other clues I think is a pattern is, um, is people being rude to each other. So I think it’s quite unlikely, because a traitor’s main motivation usually is to lay back and, you know, go with the herd and be unobserved.
So I think when people are being rude to each other, uh, depending on the context, but I think by and large, if there’s like animosity being expressed quite openly to people, I think that’s a pretty significant pattern of somebody, uh, indicator of being a faithful. Like, so for example, on the- In the, uh, American, uh, one I watched, there were these two, two women who were, like, really fighting each other, like, really rude to each other, and I was– If I was an outside observer in that show, I would’ve been like, “Both of these people are very unlikely to be traitors,” because a traitor just wouldn’t be, like, creating drama and- Yeah
theoretically bringing attention, negative attention onto themselves, right? So, and, and, and in your s- in your series,
Zack Davies: there was also, like- Yeah, I,
Zach Elwood: I have
Zack Davies: no fucking problem being rude to people.
Zach Elwood: Right, which I think- May- maybe- … you know, I was gonna get into-
Zack Davies: Yeah. Maybe you’re quite
Zach Elwood: probably that. I was gonna get into that.
Uh, but also, like, you know, there was a few moments where, like, a few interactions that happened where, like, you know, uh, Jasmine was getting, getting kinda heated with a few people, and like- Yeah … you know, obviously we’re again, we’re t- we’re again talking patterns that can be-
Zack Davies: Yeah …
Zach Elwood: far from 100%, but it’s, it’s like I d- I do think those kind of like getting back to, like, the more exuberant kinda behavior can indicate- Yeah
uh, a- a- and will- and willing to be, and willing to irritate other people, which maps over to a bunch of games like poker. Like, if you see kind of, like, agitating or rude behavior in poker from somebody who’s made a big bet, it’s quite unlikely that they’re bluffing, because a, a bluffer doesn’t wanna trigger someone’s dislike a- and get them to call them, you know, even out of spite or something, right?
So it’s like it maps over to some other- You haven’t been to one of
Zack Davies: my home games, then.
Zach Elwood: Well, maybe, yeah, maybe you got some, some outliers. But what do, what do you think of that pattern, though, of the- No,
Zack Davies: I agree. I
Zach Elwood: think- … the kind of like agitating-
Zack Davies: Yeah, I think that’s a, that’s a good one. I hadn’t actually, uh, given much thought to, but yeah, I think angrier people are typically more faithful.
It’s probably, you could probably plot it on a graph and, and there would be- Hmm … a clear correlation. Um, but yeah, like Leanne season three, very rude to everyone, ends up, uh, being one of the faithfuls that won in the end. Um, me- Oh … uh, me and Jasmine were rude constantly to each other, but we had this, like, really great, like, love, love-hate relationship, and we’re still very good friends now.
Um- Mm-hmm … so I guess we felt like we had that relationship to be able to shout at each other across the room really aggressively. And I felt like I, um, I, I naturally, when I’m sure of my moral convictions, I get quite forceful and passionate about them. Um, probably a neurodivergent thing. Uh, so, so, so feel, feel very comfortable shouting at people aggressively.
And there was actually, there was one time in our round table where, um, where Claudia had a go at us for being rude to each other, ’cause we’d been… There was about an hour shouting match between me, Jasmine, Ross, and I think Evie. And we were, uh, it might’ve been the episode that, uh, Ross got banished. Uh, we found out he was both a traitor and Diane’s son.
And, uh, what you didn’t see that was not shown in the edit was Claudia going, “Calm down. Everyone calm down.”‘Cause, ’cause, uh, yeah, on our season we all just felt totally fine doing that. Um-
Zach Elwood: Mm.
Zack Davies: And, and Ross was, um, despite being a traitor then, up to that moment he had been aggressive at people, but he only been made a traitor in that episode.
So yeah- Right … I think, I think, I think, uh, if you look at our season, there were four people who were, like, fairly rude to people constantly, and at all Faithless. Right. So, uh- Yeah … yeah, I agree with that one.
Zach Elwood: Yeah. Um, so yeah, I wanted to get back to this, uh, ’cause some
Zack Davies: of the- Does this, does this shine very well on me, though, that I’m, that I’m very happy being rude to people?
Zach Elwood: No, no. I, I- … that’s actually what I wanna pivot to is because, uh, I mean, a lot of the things we’ve talked about, the patterns are related to, like, kind of exuberance. It’s, like, unrestrained behavior, right? Is, is more tied to, uh, Faithfuls. So I think an interesting thing I observed with your journey was your, your personality.
You know, like your, your jokiness, you’re saying unusual things. You’re, you’re, uh, thinking out loud about who could, who could be the f- the Traitors and the, and the Faithfuls and such. I think that did draw attention onto you that theoretically could have gotten you out. But once you got past that kind of like beginning level game, I think you’re– I think once people started realizing that some of their bad deductions that had occurred, like, you know, basing banishments on these really bad clues, I think once you got past that first stage of the game, a lot of the Faith- the Faithfuls were more likely to start seeing your exuberance for what it was, that an indicator that you were a Faithful, so they started trusting you more, you more.
So I think that there was, at least from, you know, again, the, the show is highly edited, but the vibe that I got was that even if they, you know… I, I felt like you were f- fairly off the radar as a potential Traitor towards the end, and I think that was mainly because of you, how you handled yourself, because I think people started realizing, like even if they couldn’t consciously, you know, explain it, I think people felt the sense that like you were trustworthy because you were willing to think out loud, you were willing- Yeah
to joke around, you were willing to talk openly. So I think even if they couldn’t like necessarily elucidate what it, what it was, I think you kind of had people’s trust by the end. Because I didn’t, unless they edited it out, I didn’t hear people- No, no, no … talking about you as a potential Traitor. I think that, that,
Zack Davies: that rings fairly true, uh- Yeah
which is pretty much why I was murdered when I was. I think I’d, I’d outlived my usefulness to the Traitors. Yeah. Um, ’cause I helped Harry on his one last big plot to win the game by- … aggressively vying for a strategy that was wrong, which ex- exactly the strategy that he wanted everyone to think was the case.
Um, and, uh, yeah, that was the moment where I was obviously a Faithful ’cause, you know, I’d, I’d got out, I think I’d voted for the three Traitors that had got out and made compelling arguments for why. Um, and yeah, there was no need to keep me anymore ’cause I guess, yeah, the, the- Mm. Mm-hmm … the unusual, irrational, angry, passionate Zach will, might turn your head to you in the next episode if you don’t murder him.
Zach Elwood: Yeah, that’s what I meant. That was why I, I was surprised you, you did last as long. It’s like I felt like you were- Yeah, same … either gonna get banished or, uh, you’d get killed off really quickly. So- Do,
Zack Davies: do you wanna, do you wanna guess, uh, how long my partner thought that I was gonna be on the show for?
Zach Elwood: Um, two episodes
Zack Davies: Two episodes.
Bang on.
Zach Elwood: Yeah, you survi- I mean, you, you ran through a lot of gauntlets of theoretical,
Zack Davies: uh- Yeah, I surprised myself. I was there for … I was, I was out there for 21 days, which is quite- Yeah … quite a long time to, to be in that constant fucking hell of a mental trauma environment. But, uh-
Zach Elwood: Oh, yeah, I couldn’t, I couldn’t do it, honestly.
Like, I … Even if somebody was like, “We’re gonna pay you a lot of money to be on this show,” I, I just think my, my own, uh, at least how I, how I perceive them, the, the limitations would’ve, uh, scared me off. But do, do you think based on your experience, do you feel like it, it, it, it, it, uh, that experience of going through the, the panic attack and such, do you think you grew as a person and were more able to deal with adversity from that?
Zack Davies: Yeah, absolutely. Um-
Zach Elwood: Yeah …
Zack Davies: I, I felt terrible on the show, and I was like a husk of a man after a show. My, my partner, like three months down the line, I, I started feeling healthier, and she was like, “Oh, God, I was worried about you for a second after that. It’s like the first couple weeks after the show you weren’t right.”
And, uh, and, and I, I think it made me far more confident and far more self-assured. Um- Mm. It, it made me have a bit more conviction in my thoughts, ’cause I felt like I, I, I played the game well, and I, you know, I was able to go to a complete strange environment with 21 other people and still have a nice time and make friends despite all the stuff that was happening mentally for me.
Um, and it really threw out my, threw me out my comfort zone, and it’s really intense character development, um, ’cause it’s the most high-stress of situations. You’re seeing if you float or sink. And I think on- Mm-hmm … taking the, the, the, I guess the whole show together and my whole time there, I think on the whole I floated quite nicely.
Um-
Zach Elwood: Mm-hmm …
Zack Davies: so, so yeah, it w- it was, it was great. And then it aired, and then that was something else entirely. So, um- Hmm. Yeah,
Zach Elwood: how long after did it air after you were done?
Zack Davies: Oh, I think it aired about s- five months or six months after we filmed. Um-
Zach Elwood: Oh, wow.
Zack Davies: So yeah- Yeah … that was, that was a crazy period of my life where basically for the next six months I was actually a celebrity.
Um- Yeah. And it sounds crazy saying that, but, um, I was stopped basically every time I left the house. Uh, if I went to- Yeah … a public area, everyone would be staring at me. Uh, I’d be asked for pictures every time I, I, I walked past someone. Um-
Zach Elwood: Wild …
Zack Davies: and, and then I grew my hair out a little bit more. You can’t see under the hat, but my hair is very long right now when I was booked on the show.
Oh, yeah. Um, my hair is … Like, people stopped recognizing me. Um- And, and unfortunately that happened just as I started enjoying being recognized. So, like, I, I really- … I really hated it at the start, and it made me even more anxious. But as I, as I felt healthier and more mentally secure, I was like, “Oh, this is actually quite fun.”
And, uh- Mm … and then it stopped. And I had, I’d had my five minutes
Zach Elwood: Very cool. Very cool. Well, thanks for sharing all that. It’s, uh, I really appreciate hearing behind the scenes and hearing your personal struggles. I think people- Yeah, thank you … will really like to hear that. And, um, yeah, is there anything else you’d care to share that we haven’t touched on that really come to mind about that people might be interested in w- in terms of like…
Oh, yeah, d- like, uh, I was gonna ask you about deductions that you were especially proud of that maybe didn’t make it into the show. Anything
Zack Davies: come to mind for that? Yeah. I think I was the first person to suggest that Paul was a traitor. Um-
Zach Elwood: Hmm …
Zack Davies: and I don’t think it, that shows itself in the edit. I think I- Hmm
pretty much called that morning at the breakfast when he was in the dungeon that he was a traitor, and I think that- Hmm … led to Paul getting voted out. But I think, uh, Harry took all the credit for getting him out, even though I felt like I was far more of a focal point in that. Um-
Zach Elwood: Ah.
Zack Davies: I felt qu- I, I, I was really impressed at how I didn’t get banished.
Uh, I thought given my m- my vocal slip-ups constantly that for sure I was gonna get banished at some point. But I was quite impressed with my, my ability to, like, persuade people and argue my case, like, really logically at the round table and bring people who weren’t- Mm-hmm … on side, on side. I think there was p- few people I convinced when they were dead set it was me, and by the end of my- Mm-hmm
two minutes talking about why it wouldn’t be me,
Zach Elwood: they were like- Yeah, create that reasonable doubt.
Zack Davies: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, I did study law so- Right.
Zach Elwood: All you need, all you need is to convince a few people- Yeah, yeah … that like, “Oh, let’s not vote for him.”
Zack Davies: Yeah. And, um, yeah, I think of proudest moments, um- I don’t, I, I, I don’t know entirely.
I think, I think just being put in the situation and not, you know, having to be in a straitjacket afterwards is probably pro- proud proud enough in itself. Um-
Zach Elwood: Well, yeah. Paul, the Paul thing was interesting ’cause it was like the, the basic fact that like what are the chances a very popular influential person would be kept around by the traitors is just such, by itself even, is just such a, uh, seems like a major clue, right?
Zack Davies: Oh, yeah. I think, yeah, I think actually if, if I do talk about, um, one line I’m particularly proud for, it was I think I said to Paul, um, I can’t actually remember if it did air, but I said to Paul, “Why do you think you’re here?” And I think that just got everyone thinking, “Oh.” Uh-
Zach Elwood: Yeah, yeah … wh-
Zack Davies: why,
Zach Elwood: why- I think, I think that did make it.
Yeah. Something like that anyway,
Zack Davies: yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. And then I think his answer was, “I don’t know why I’m here.” And I think unfortunately that’s not a good enough answer.
Zach Elwood: Yeah, yeah. No,
Zack Davies: very interesting. Yeah. So one thing that I am proud of is, is realizing that Diane was someone’s mum straight away. And, and I, I’ve been cut out of the, uh, the kind of story and narrative behind, uh, but Ross is.
He’s my son. Uh, that whole, that whole thing happened because I mentioned to Andrew that I thought Diane was related to Paul. Um, but I clearly cottoned onto the idea- But why,
Zach Elwood: why did you, uh, why did you think that it… Was it, was it them specifically or did you think Diane was-
Zack Davies: So I, I, I thought Diane was-
someone’s mum? … certainly someone’s mum. I was, I was-
Zach Elwood: Why did you think that?
Zack Davies: I just thought the way she was. I, I, I really got it wrong with Diane, ’cause I thought Diane had been brought along as someone’s mum. Uh, but then I didn’t realize that after getting to know Diane and getting to know Ross, um, that Ross is really laid back, doesn’t really care about the show, was just coming ’cause it’s a bit of a laugh.
Whereas Diane is like really, uh, exciting. She’s like really energetic, really out there, really outgoing. Um, she’s like a, she’s like a Jack Russell I guess. Um, and, and then I was like, “Oh wow, no, she was the person that came on and brought her son.” And I think if I realized that earlier I might have narrowed it down to, um, Ross rather than Paul.
But- But I was just, I was just certain- So, uh- … that something was slightly not right there with, with Diane.
Zach Elwood: But why, I, I gotta ask like, ’cause y- I remember when we were watching it, uh, you said Yeah, you said, uh, I think, I think, uh, Diane’s someone’s mom, and, uh, my partner and I were like, “Why, why did he say that?
What, what, uh, w- did you, can you elucidate the reasons there?” Yeah, well, they,
Zack Davies: they always, they always try and do, like, a twist of, like, these people know each other or, um- Oh, okay …
Zach Elwood: so
Zack Davies: I was like, they did, they did a boyfriend and girlfriend last time. Um- Oh … what could be the possible avenues? And I was thinking siblings, and I was thinking, you know, could these people be related?
Uh, Brian and Ross look a bit similar. Maybe they’re related or something. Um, and then I was thinking, actually, Paul and Diane are both ginger, and she’s not a natural ginger. Um, and they have some similar facial features. But then I didn’t realize- Hmm … when you take off Ross’s glasses, his eyes are exactly the same as Diane’s,
Zach Elwood: so.
That’s a good, uh, that was a, that was an impressive deduction that that might be going on. I was like, “Where did that come from?”
Zack Davies: But yeah- Yeah, people- That’s, that’s, that’s interesting … people thought that, like, uh, Kyra and Jasmine were related, and that is just, like, intensely racist. So- Hmm. Yeah … they’re just assuming, “Oh, there’s two Black people.
I bet they’re brother and, they’re, they’re sisters.” Um, and I was- Yeah, not
Zach Elwood: a great, uh, not a great read …
Zack Davies: and then I was thinking maybe Sonia could be someone’s mom ’cause she’s got, like, really motherly energy. Um, I, I, I- Hmm … I couldn’t figure out, and then I was like, “Diane. Hmm, something’s not right there.”
Then I’ve aired it, and, and since that, I’ve been completely cut from the narrative, and the only thing that, the only thing that cares is, uh, that anyone cares about is Diane going, “But Ross is,” which is ultimately an unbelievable bit of TV, but something I helped, uh, manufacture. So-
Zach Elwood: No, that, that was-
Zack Davies: I would like to get my-
Zach Elwood: That was impressive
jeans, please. That, that was impressive, honestly. I was like, “How did he, what’s going on with that?” Yeah, so that was, that was a good bit of, uh, suspicion there, yeah. Um, yeah, anything else you’d care to share before we, uh, cut this out, cut it off?
Zack Davies: Uh, yeah, just, just to take any opportunities to plug my podcast again.
Uh, if y- if you do love learning about history and watching two idiots bumble their way through what’s happened in the past over a few beers, then please do check out the Pint-Sized History podcast. Um, you can find us on all platforms, all social media, everything like that. Um-
Zach Elwood: Yep …
Zack Davies: so yeah. Thank you very much.
I
Zach Elwood: followed you on, uh, Instagram. I was watching some clips on Instagram. I recommend it.
Zack Davies: Thank you very much.
Zach Elwood: Okay. Thanks.
That was a talk with Zack Davies, who was on the second season of the British production of The Traitors.
This has been the People Who Read People podcast with me, Zach Elwood, and you can learn more about it at behavior-podcast.com. If you want to learn about my work on poker tells, that’s at readingpokertells.com.